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  #21  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:06 PM
TexasLogic TexasLogic is offline
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No, I didn't. But I did point out how ridiculous someone is for thinking the war on drugs is a waste of money while actively supporting 'war on poverty' failed policy.

So why don't we attack Mexican drug cartels in the same fashion that we did Colombia's?

I know why Obama never would, but why shouldn't we?

Moving Mexico towards China-type usefulness (manufacturing) behooves both countries, but that will never happen while the country is controlled by cartels.
I'm not sure what benefits our attack on Colombian drug cartels had for our own war on drugs, but I am sure it benefited the Colombian government and Mexican drug cartels. I'm not really interested in fighting Mexico's war on drugs when we can't even win the "war" in our own country -- and when the battleground will simply move to some other central or south American country. Just curious, what affect do pot smokers have on you that you are willing to pay for, and support, a war to attempt to choke off their supply (which won't happen anyway -- best case scenario is to limit the supply which will only have the effect of driving up cost)?
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  #22  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GammaEta67 View Post
No.
Then you accomplish nothing more than a temporary disruption in supply. Duh.
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  #23  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:02 PM
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And I have news for you...we can't make military strikes in Mexico. They are a sovereign nation. To do so would be an act of war. Further, these drug folks live and work amongst the people. To kill them means we'd have to kill loads of civilians.

That would go over REALLY well internationally.

You think life is a video game, my friend, where you can just push a button, kill the bad guys, and we win the game. Where we have infinite lives, and the bad guys are just that. Where collateral damage does not exist because the civilians aren't real.

This is real life, Gamma.
It is real life, and because it's real life, we have no alternative but to do something rather than nothing. Let me help you here. Any nation that can't prevent terrorists or international drug smugglers from operating on its soil and exporting either terror or illegal drugs (or both) internationally is by definition a "failed state", and a failed state cannot complain if nations targeted by the exported terror or illegal drugs (or both) intervene to interdict and eradicate the problem. Afghanistan could not stop Al Qaida from exporting terror from its soil; we had the right to intervene, and we did. Mexico cannot stop illegal drugs from being exported from its soil; we have the right to intervene, and we should.
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric Nahlin View Post
No, I didn't. But I did point out how ridiculous someone is for thinking the war on drugs is a waste of money while actively supporting 'war on poverty' failed policy.

So why don't we attack Mexican drug cartels in the same fashion that we did Colombia's?

I know why Obama never would, but why shouldn't we?

Moving Mexico towards China-type usefulness (manufacturing) behooves both countries, but that will never happen while the country is controlled by cartels.
Poverty and drugs run hand in hand. Mexico is POOR! The country has no middle class, it is 90% peons and 10% ultra wealthy. The cartels flourish because the Mexican gov't. is corrupt and have sold out to the cartels decades ago. El Presidente sure as hell doesn't want us coming in their country and shutting down the cartel's ( and we could!). He's PART of the drug industry - that and Pemex which is just as corrupt.
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  #25  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:09 PM
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We can't shut down drug runners in our own country - how the hell are we gthoing to shut them down somewhere else?
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  #26  
Old 05-07-2012, 04:27 AM
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We can't shut down drug runners in our own country - how the hell are we gthoing to shut them down somewhere else?
By the time international drug runners get to America, they are usually dealing in much smaller quantities. On the other side of the border is where the production facilities and organizational headquarters are, and they are much easier to locate and target. Let's face it. These guys are absolutely cold blooded killers who are importing addictive and lethal and mind-destroying drugs into our country for sale to our citizens, predominately our young people at a very formative stage in their lives. There doesn't need to be any trial on this. We have a right of self-defense to stop these killers, and we should exercise it. Wherever they build headquarters and processing plants and distribution centers, we should target and destroy them in just the same way we targeted and destroyed Al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan. Wherever they are individually, we should target and kill them, in just the same way that we are targeting and destroying Al Qaida operatives today in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and throughout the world. This really is a war. They really are in the process of destroying America. And thus far we've done nothing seriously intended to stop them. That needs to change.

If we catch them, do we torture them? Of course not. Torture is for phony warriors who don't know how to win wars. But they want to feel like their doing something positive, so they dream up torture games. Real Americans win wars. Phony Americans play torture games. Relying on torture has been a disaster and has never won us anything. Torture tarnishes the image of America as a bastion of human dignity and human freedom throughout the world, and makes our enemies stronger. Torture undermines the very reason our soldiers believe they should win. Americans believe they should win, and people throughout the world have always wanted Americans to win, because America stands up for human freedom and human dignity like no other nation in the history of the world. The day of the phony American warrior is over. It's time for real Americans to stand up and start winning wars.

Torture is a part of the phony warrior syndrome that probably started in Korea, where we fought, but never had any intention of winning. That needs to change. In a phony war, the object is not kill the snake, but to contain the snake. So you torture the snake, to intimidate the snake and control the snake. In a real war, you kill the snake.

Last edited by GammaEta67; 05-07-2012 at 05:40 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:14 AM
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For all the rhetoric on this thread about drugs from Mexico, it's but a portion of the drug problem in the US. As significant or even moreso are the homemade chemical drugs such as meth and street use of presciption drugs for recreational purposes. Among our youth, these are likely the top problems.
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  #28  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasLogic View Post
I'm not sure what benefits our attack on Colombian drug cartels had for our own war on drugs, but I am sure it benefited the Colombian government and Mexican drug cartels. I'm not really interested in fighting Mexico's war on drugs when we can't even win the "war" in our own country -- and when the battleground will simply move to some other central or south American country. Just curious, what affect do pot smokers have on you that you are willing to pay for, and support, a war to attempt to choke off their supply (which won't happen anyway -- best case scenario is to limit the supply which will only have the effect of driving up cost)?
I wasn't necessarily looking at it as a war on drugs, but as an attempt to stabilize Mexico which of course America would benefit from greatly.

If the battleground simply moves to some other central or south American country, well that's better than it being fought in Nuevo Laredo.
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  #29  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:54 AM
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Eric, what makes you think we can stabilize Mexico by force? It sure as hell hasn't worked in Afghanistan.
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  #30  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:05 AM
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Eric, what makes you think we can stabilize Mexico by force? It sure as hell hasn't worked in Afghanistan.
The Taliban had/has miliatry capability. Drug cartels while having some sophisticated weapons aren't nearly as formidable.

And, they're not half way around the world. We could hit them with soldiers that sleep in their own bed.

I'm saying we should use the same tactics we used in Colombia even if it's not for 'war on drug' reasoning. That's simply a secondary benefit.

I would love to see the same type of industry that China benefits from go to Mexico as the long term goal. Coherently get that message through to the people and you'd probably see some citizen uprising at the ballot box to counter their fraud of a government.
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  #31  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:21 AM
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Think logically about this, Eric.

The original post was referring to how somebody had hung nine bodies from a bridge in Nuevo Laredo, and then dumped 14 more headless bodies by a roadside.

Now ask yourself this...why would those people do that? Do they simply like killing? Well, they might, but there's a reason why they did it this way. The reason is, they want to send a message to the other gangs. Quit or die. And this has been going on for years.

Yet in the face of threats of death or worse, there is still no shortage of people willing to risk all that to work for one side or the other. Despite the fact that one side is telling them, if you don't quit you could be hung from a bridge, there is a never-ending supply of folks ready to risk it.

In the face of that, why in the world would you think that the fear of being shot by US soldiers is going to stop them?

It's like Doritos - crunch all you want, we'll make more. We can kill hundreds and hundreds of drug runners, and somebody else will step up to try and make money.

IT.WON'T.WORK.

All we'll do is become the bad guy yet again, our soldiers out killing more helpless villagers, and the flow of drugs will keep right on going.
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  #32  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by GammaEta67 View Post
By the time international drug runners get to America, they are usually dealing in much smaller quantities. On the other side of the border is where the production facilities and organizational headquarters are, and they are much easier to locate and target. Let's face it. These guys are absolutely cold blooded killers who are importing addictive and lethal and mind-destroying drugs into our country for sale to our citizens, predominately our young people at a very formative stage in their lives. There doesn't need to be any trial on this. We have a right of self-defense to stop these killers, and we should exercise it. Wherever they build headquarters and processing plants and distribution centers, we should target and destroy them in just the same way we targeted and destroyed Al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan. Wherever they are individually, we should target and kill them, in just the same way that we are targeting and destroying Al Qaida operatives today in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and throughout the world. This really is a war. They really are in the process of destroying America. And thus far we've done nothing seriously intended to stop them. That needs to change.

If we catch them, do we torture them? Of course not. Torture is for phony warriors who don't know how to win wars. But they want to feel like their doing something positive, so they dream up torture games. Real Americans win wars. Phony Americans play torture games. Relying on torture has been a disaster and has never won us anything. Torture tarnishes the image of America as a bastion of human dignity and human freedom throughout the world, and makes our enemies stronger. Torture undermines the very reason our soldiers believe they should win. Americans believe they should win, and people throughout the world have always wanted Americans to win, because America stands up for human freedom and human dignity like no other nation in the history of the world. The day of the phony American warrior is over. It's time for real Americans to stand up and start winning wars.

Torture is a part of the phony warrior syndrome that probably started in Korea, where we fought, but never had any intention of winning. That needs to change. In a phony war, the object is not kill the snake, but to contain the snake. So you torture the snake, to intimidate the snake and control the snake. In a real war, you kill the snake.
GammaEta67 - I like the cut of your jib!
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  #33  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JG View Post
Think logically about this, Eric.

The original post was referring to how somebody had hung nine bodies from a bridge in Nuevo Laredo, and then dumped 14 more headless bodies by a roadside.

Now ask yourself this...why would those people do that? Do they simply like killing? Well, they might, but there's a reason why they did it this way. The reason is, they want to send a message to the other gangs. Quit or die. And this has been going on for years.

Yet in the face of threats of death or worse, there is still no shortage of people willing to risk all that to work for one side or the other. Despite the fact that one side is telling them, if you don't quit you could be hung from a bridge, there is a never-ending supply of folks ready to risk it.

In the face of that, why in the world would you think that the fear of being shot by US soldiers is going to stop them?

It's like Doritos - crunch all you want, we'll make more. We can kill hundreds and hundreds of drug runners, and somebody else will step up to try and make money.

IT.WON'T.WORK.

All we'll do is become the bad guy yet again, our soldiers out killing more helpless villagers, and the flow of drugs will keep right on going.
I'm not saying we should advocate going after drug runners. You attack the CEO's of the cartel like generals of an enemy military. In the process of that you kill tons of the little guys too, which is fine with me.

A big portion of this operation is uniting the downtrodden and opressed people of Mexico that want to uprise in unison. They want to, but why would they? They can't even trust their government or police. They need help.

If America is considered the bad guy for killing off violent cartels, I'm pretty much Ok with that.

Columbia is a vastly different country than it was 20 years ago, at least according to the few Colombians I've talked to. Obviously Colombia isn't on the nightly news anymore.
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Last edited by Eric Nahlin; 05-07-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:52 AM
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GammaEta67 - I like the cut of your jib!
Thanks, Doc. I play to win, and I don't care whose feathers I ruffle.
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  #35  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JG View Post
Think logically about this, Eric.

The original post was referring to how somebody had hung nine bodies from a bridge in Nuevo Laredo, and then dumped 14 more headless bodies by a roadside.

Now ask yourself this...why would those people do that? Do they simply like killing? Well, they might, but there's a reason why they did it this way. The reason is, they want to send a message to the other gangs. Quit or die. And this has been going on for years.

Yet in the face of threats of death or worse, there is still no shortage of people willing to risk all that to work for one side or the other. Despite the fact that one side is telling them, if you don't quit you could be hung from a bridge, there is a never-ending supply of folks ready to risk it.

In the face of that, why in the world would you think that the fear of being shot by US soldiers is going to stop them?

It's like Doritos - crunch all you want, we'll make more. We can kill hundreds and hundreds of drug runners, and somebody else will step up to try and make money.

IT.WON'T.WORK.

All we'll do is become the bad guy yet again, our soldiers out killing more helpless villagers, and the flow of drugs will keep right on going.
Alright, we get you are negative about Afganistan and Mexico ever being wars we can win. You have a solution? Maybe isolationism?
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  #36  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:02 AM
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If you are trying to get through a brick wall, it's not being negative to realize that hurling yourself against it again and again and again is simply not going to work. You have to come up with another way. Go over it...under it...around it. Or hell, turn around and go back the other way.

It is a freaking fantasy to think that we can solve everything by threatening to blow people away. That works with nations. It doesn't work with terrorists or drug runners. They hide like cockroaches, and they make it infinitely more costly to root them out that it is worth.
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  #37  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JG View Post
If you are trying to get through a brick wall, it's not being negative to realize that hurling yourself against it again and again and again is simply not going to work. You have to come up with another way. Go over it...under it...around it. Or hell, turn around and go back the other way.

It is a freaking fantasy to think that we can solve everything by threatening to blow people away. That works with nations. It doesn't work with terrorists or drug runners. They hide like cockroaches, and they make it infinitely more costly to root them out that it is worth.
You're mistaken about that, JG. Their own neighbors turn them in to get rid of them. It's happening with Al Qaida in Pakistan. It would happen in Mexico with the drug cartels. Normal people live in absolute fear of these thugs, and if there is an opportunity to get rid of them, they take it. Otherwise, they know that their head could be the next one in a plastic cooler on main street.
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  #38  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:40 AM
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We need to infiltrate their position and poison their tacos.
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  #39  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:43 AM
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Thanks, Doc. I play to win, and I don't care whose feathers I ruffle.
You play to win the message board game?
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  #40  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:48 AM
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You play to win the message board game?
The truth game.
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