2020 Democratic Primaries

J Galt

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Feb 9, 2012
4,470
13,750
0
37
Lake Highlands, Dallas
Read it again. The simple break it down is that it’s not just that the tyrannical majority in government is passing laws to enshrine rights that the minority wants to get rid of (ie, gun laws). Which was what was mentioned. The majority in government often passes restrictive laws, which have nothing to do with rights, that many times the majority of citizens oppose.
I don't think you understand what is meant when we mention "tyranny of the majority". You're arguing against the point and yet citing examples that are either aligned with the point or completely unrelated.
 
Last edited:

calvin farquhar

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Dec 19, 2017
8,523
15,546
0
I don't think you understand what is meant when we mention "tyranny of the majority". You're arguing against the point and yet citing examples that are either aligned with the point or completely unrelated.

That was my take as well. He seems to be conflating one thing to address another.
 

TexasPalladin

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Nov 30, 2008
8,180
13,301
0
Read this and weep.

I don't have the words to convey my fear and sadness that this is happening.


Semper Fi
 

J Galt

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Feb 9, 2012
4,470
13,750
0
37
Lake Highlands, Dallas
Read this and weep.

I don't have the words to convey my fear and sadness that this is happening.


Semper Fi
It is the single greatest issue of our time. Proxy battles on individual issues pale in comparison to winning this ideological war. I'm actually reasonably confident.
 

sacatomato horn

Member Who Talks
Sep 15, 2016
601
1,218
0
I'm surprised. I would have thought that the whole Pocahontas thing may have finished her. My kid likes her for some reason. For me, she sounds just like Hillary...another unlikable strident old woman. Pass.
Here is one amusing explanation: Warren's Economic Nationalism is very similar to Trumpianism. They want the same ends by radically different means. She came out with these policies at the same time she began to surge in the polls.
When Tucker Carlson is praising Elizabeth Warren economic policies, you know this is going to be a highly entertaining primary season.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/06/donald-trump-and-elizabeth-warren-soul-siblings.php
 

calvin farquhar

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Dec 19, 2017
8,523
15,546
0
Here is one amusing explanation: Warren's Economic Nationalism is very similar to Trumpianism. They want the same ends by radically different means. She came out with these policies at the same time she began to surge in the polls.
When Tucker Carlson is praising Elizabeth Warren economic policies, you know this is going to be a highly entertaining primary season.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/06/donald-trump-and-elizabeth-warren-soul-siblings.php

next she'll have a slogan like Make the U.S. Awesome Like Before.
 

jamesrh

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
3,604
2,773
0
Seven live mothers is a lot of live mothers to me.

You see, you care more about the fetus, but I care more about the person carrying that fetus.

The idea that any of these women just up and decided “cut it out and kill it, I don’t want it anymore” is ludicrous. Something went horribly wrong, whether it be some horrific deformity in the child or the mother couldn’t carry it and survive.

I know it’s a nice conservative thought that we have to save the babies, but real life isn’t a poster.
Actually in most cases in the third trimester, when carrying to term is not possible or advisable for the health or life of the mother, delivering the baby and then letting nature take its course is actually safer for the mother. Not 100%, but 90-95%. However doing that puts a "face" on things and makes it psychologically harder and cuts into the abortion argument, so they take the abortion route.
 

padrehorn11

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 27, 2016
3,001
5,914
0
Texas
I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual Dem nominee comes from way out in left field. None of the current bunch impresses me.
Way out in left field, given the batch that's running, is not even in the ball park. They're standing way out in the the parking lot on the left field side of the ball park. (I'm MLB mode, nowadays. I finally got a VPN so I could watch Astros games on MLBtv. Who would have thought that San Angelo was in-market for the Astros.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: UTGrad91

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
Actually in most cases in the third trimester, when carrying to term is not possible or advisable for the health or life of the mother, delivering the baby and then letting nature take its course is actually safer for the mother. Not 100%, but 90-95%. However doing that puts a "face" on things and makes it psychologically harder and cuts into the abortion argument, so they take the abortion route.
I think we should let that decision be made by the woman and her doctor. Not politicians.
 

UTGrad91

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
14,519
7,848
0
I think we should let that decision be made by the woman and her doctor. Not politicians.
In other words abortion on demand until birth which is basically what the Illinois and Vermont laws that I pointed out allow. At least there's some honesty in that instead of hiding behind "health of the mother" which is very rarely a legitimate concern.
 

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
In other words abortion on demand until birth which is basically what the Illinois and Vermont laws that I pointed out allow. At least there's some honesty in that instead of hiding behind "health of the mother" which is very rarely a legitimate concern.
You trust politicians, and put them between a woman and her doctor. I get it.

The idea that full term abortions are taking place with healthy infants is ludicrous. Where is this happening? It’s not. Pro life folks are just using this issue to whip up support for ALL abortions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TEXBTP

UTGrad91

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
14,519
7,848
0
You trust politicians, and put them between a woman and her doctor. I get it.

The idea that full term abortions are taking place with healthy infants is ludicrous. Where is this happening? It’s not. Pro life folks are just using this issue to whip up support for ALL abortions.
I'm consistently against all abortions except the very rare cases where the mother's health is in danger. That's not in line with majority opinion on abortion, but so is abortion on demand until birth and if the Dems run on the platform it will hurt them in 2020.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 40A, PFD and Halas

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
I'm consistently against all abortions except the very rare cases where the mother's health is in danger. That's not in line with majority opinion on abortion, but so is abortion on demand until birth and if the Dems run on the platform it will hurt them in 2020.
What's different about your position than these late-term laws? It's only allowed if the mother's health is in danger. Seems like you are complaining about something you say you agree with.

Almost no one is demanding abortion on demand until birth, and the Dems aren't running on that platform.
 

UTGrad91

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
14,519
7,848
0
What's different about your position than these late-term laws? It's only allowed if the mother's health is in danger. Seems like you are complaining about something you say you agree with.

Almost no one is demanding abortion on demand until birth, and the Dems aren't running on that platform.
I've pointed out twice already the Illinois and Vermont laws that do allow for abortion on demand until birth and there were other Dem abortion bills like VA that allowed for the same but never became law.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PFD and padrehorn11

UTGrad91

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
14,519
7,848
0
What's different about your position than these late-term laws? It's only allowed if the mother's health is in danger. Seems like you are complaining about something you say you agree with.

Almost no one is demanding abortion on demand until birth, and the Dems aren't running on that platform.
BTW: One thing I don't understand. When we're talking about third trimester abortions there's no doubt that the baby is viable. If in the very rare occasions the mother's health is an issue, why not just deliver the baby prematurely and have it adopted if the mother doesn't want to keep it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: PFD and padrehorn11

sacatomato horn

Member Who Talks
Sep 15, 2016
601
1,218
0
It is the single greatest issue of our time. Proxy battles on individual issues pale in comparison to winning this ideological war. I'm actually reasonably confident.
I am confident as well. Recent polling shows that some large % of American millennials prefer socialism, causing conservative anxiety. But if you look around Palo Alto, CA or the aerospace companies in Arizona you see hard core capitalist engineers and other STEMs that are not the least bit interested in the shared misery of socialism. They may be wearing Che T Shirts and talking about how wonderful healthcare is in Cuba, but this is an act. Free market prosperity allows them to indulge these woke fantasies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: calvin farquhar

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
BTW: One thing I don't understand. When we're talking about third trimester abortions there's no doubt that the baby is viable. If in the very rare occasions the mother's health is an issue, why not just deliver the baby prematurely and have it adopted if the mother doesn't want to keep it?
If that can be done safely, fine with me.

The issue is more often with the baby at that point.
 

UTGrad91

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
14,519
7,848
0
If that can be done safely, fine with me.

The issue is more often with the baby at that point.
That's a totally different issue. My sister's first two pregnancies were a tubal pregnancy and a baby with Turner's syndrome. The tubal pregnancy of course had to be terminated and the Turner syndrome baby died in uterus so it had to be removed. (I don't even know if that would be considered an abortion, but the theory is the same which is that if the baby isn't going to be born alive then it must be removed)
 

mcb0703!

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Feb 6, 2015
14,316
24,895
0
I am confident as well. Recent polling shows that some large % of American millennials prefer socialism, causing conservative anxiety. But if you look around Palo Alto, CA or the aerospace companies in Arizona you see hard core capitalist engineers and other STEMs that are not the least bit interested in the shared misery of socialism. They may be wearing Che T Shirts and talking about how wonderful healthcare is in Cuba, but this is an act. Free market prosperity allows them to indulge these woke fantasies.
Very much an act. Millennials like to make videos of themselves at some rally, & then throw it on Facebook & say "look at this video I just made"; they show up at BLM marches giving fake support & then display their racism at Ivy League university parties

VA governor Ralph Northam was an original millennial; democratic, anti-gun, pro-abortion, publicly pro-anything anti-white, socialist, & racist. & given his admitted pro-socialist, pro-abortion, racist background, the progressives on this board would vote for him over any republican
 

J Galt

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Feb 9, 2012
4,470
13,750
0
37
Lake Highlands, Dallas
Problem is that Biden is not a skilled candidate. He's flying high now sure, but that's by default since the other candidates aren't known. Once that changes other candidates will rise at Biden's expense.
I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual Dem nominee comes from way out in left field. None of the current bunch impresses me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UTGrad91

padrehorn11

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 27, 2016
3,001
5,914
0
Texas
What's different about your position than these late-term laws? It's only allowed if the mother's health is in danger. Seems like you are complaining about something you say you agree with.

Almost no one is demanding abortion on demand until birth, and the Dems aren't running on that platform.
BTW: One thing I don't understand. When we're talking about third trimester abortions there's no doubt that the baby is viable. If in the very rare occasions the mother's health is an issue, why not just deliver the baby prematurely and have it adopted if the mother doesn't want to keep it?
Seems like pretty much a no-brainer, doesn't it? Hmmm, so what does that say about people who would arge with that position?

Oh wait , what about a Down's syndrome fetus, for example? We, as a societyshouldn't give that severely diabled human being a chance at life? ( @JG like to use the word govenment because he knows that pushes negative buttons with Conservatives--but I think we should be using the term Society in this instance) Hmmm, now which side is compassionate and values all human beings, not just the fit and 'normal'. Maybe we should just execute people with low IQ's, or extreme forms of Autism, or who carry genes that might lead to increased chances of costly diseases later in life. Hmmmm?

I know the "slippery- slope" argument is often ridiculed, and often with reason, but really when killing innocent human beings who haven't wilfully harmed anyone becomes exceptable, even desirable, I think it's obvious that as a society are ****ed. Yes, it's a trope, but it's also a fact that millions of Germans acquiesced in killing millions of harmless Jews in death camps because they didn't fit with their definition (at the time) of "desirables". How does that happen? Well, a big part of it is dehumanizing those people to be killed. Like saying a fetus is just a parasite living temprarily in a woman's body dehumanizes those unborn child. Why does one faction react so strongly to calling them unborn children? Object to laws that require ultrasounds of those fetuses before abortion? Because they don't want to force the mother to think of them as tiny helpless human beings. I can't see any other reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UTGrad91

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
Seems like pretty much a no-brainer, doesn't it? Hmmm, so what does that say about people who would arge with that position?

Oh wait , what about a Down's syndrome fetus, for example? We, as a societyshouldn't give that severely diabled human being a chance at life? ( @JG like to use the word govenment because he knows that pushes negative buttons with Conservatives--but I think we should be using the term Society in this instance) Hmmm, now which side is compassionate and values all human beings, not just the fit and 'normal'. Maybe we should just execute people with low IQ's, or extreme forms of Autism, or who carry genes that might lead to increased chances of costly diseases later in life. Hmmmm?

I know the "slippery- slope" argument is often ridiculed, and often with reason, but really when killing innocent human beings who haven't wilfully harmed anyone becomes exceptable, even desirable, I think it's obvious that as a society are ****ed. Yes, it's a trope, but it's also a fact that millions of Germans acquiesced in killing millions of harmless Jews in death camps because they didn't fit with their definition (at the time) of "desirables". How does that happen? Well, a big part of it is dehumanizing those people to be killed. Like saying a fetus is just a parasite living temprarily in a woman's body dehumanizes those unborn child. Why does one faction react so strongly to calling them unborn children? Object to laws that require ultrasounds of those fetuses before abortion? Because they don't want to force the mother to think of them as tiny helpless human beings. I can't see any other reason.
The reason I oppose ultrasounds like that is that it’s a totally unnecessary procedure. It’s just intended to guilt the woman into not having an abortion.

Abortion is legal. We don’t need additional procedures for it.

I do question conservatives about Downs and other children, because you want these born but don’t want to pay up for their health care. But that’s also another topic.

The bottom line for abortion is that sometimes two interests diverse, the mom and the baby, and one has to trump the other.

I draw the line myself at viability. Others may think differently.

I will say that I would be fine with outlawing abortion...but only if women alone voted up or down on that. They are the ones that carry these pregnancies, not men.
 

padrehorn11

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 27, 2016
3,001
5,914
0
Texas
I do question conservatives about Downs and other children, because you want these born but don’t want to pay up for their health care. But that’s also another topic.
I gotta go, but real quick, you've committed the egregious (in my view,) error of telling me what I want. Who the hell says I don't want to pay up for the health care of people with Down's syndrome? I don't believe it should be solely a government act though. A safety net? Yes. But the complete responsibility of government? No. Society, yes. There is a difference. Some people can afford it and gladly do, and charity is also a wonderful thing, as we've discussed before. I give a tenth of my income or more to charity...because I can. If I had the choice to give much more in lieu of a great deal of the things I'm taxed for, I certainly would. But Bernie, or any of the Democratic candiates, or Trump, or hell, most politicians of any Party, evidently don't and I seriously doubt they would. They'd rather coerce us into doing the things they think are worthwhile, in the way the pols and bureaucrats want to do them. Heck, if funds or short, lets just kill them outright, or let them starve. You will never, ever find me saying that. So please, if you ever learn one thing about discussing thngs with me, stop assumming and telling me what I want.
 

J Galt

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Feb 9, 2012
4,470
13,750
0
37
Lake Highlands, Dallas
The bottom line for abortion is that sometimes two interests diverse, the mom and the baby, and one has to trump the other.
That is the fundamental issue.


I will say that I would be fine with outlawing abortion...but only if women alone voted up or down on that. They are the ones that carry these pregnancies, not men.
What about giving the babies a vote? They are the ones that live or die.
 

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
That is the fundamental issue.



What about giving the babies a vote? They are the ones that live or die.
The women have to carry them. Men don’t, yet we are trying to step in.

Maybe you aren’t old enough to remember women dying of botched homemade abortions but it wasnt infrequent. Conservatives ignore that but it happened and it would again.

I don’t want the government threatening women with prison if they don’t want to carry a pregnancy to term.
 

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
I gotta go, but real quick, you've committed the egregious (in my view,) error of telling me what I want. Who the hell says I don't want to pay up for the health care of people with Down's syndrome? I don't believe it should be solely a government act though. A safety net? Yes. But the complete responsibility of government? No. Society, yes. There is a difference. Some people can afford it and gladly do, and charity is also a wonderful thing, as we've discussed before. I give a tenth of my income or more to charity...because I can. If I had the choice to give much more in lieu of a great deal of the things I'm taxed for, I certainly would. But Bernie, or any of the Democratic candiates, or Trump, or hell, most politicians of any Party, evidently don't and I seriously doubt they would. They'd rather coerce us into doing the things they think are worthwhile, in the way the pols and bureaucrats want to do them. Heck, if funds or short, lets just kill them outright, or let them starve. You will never, ever find me saying that. So please, if you ever learn one thing about discussing thngs with me, stop assumming and telling me what I want.
Fair enough.

I won’t say “you”, I will use a generic “conservatives”.

The idea that health care to all that need it can be provided through charity is foolish IMO. It’s a fantasy.

The cost of feeding, education, and lifetime care for these babies is astronomical. Special needs kids are already a massive expense to public schools. And conservatives want to pull more money out of them, and give it to private schools that can thumb their noses at special needs kids.
 

J Galt

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Feb 9, 2012
4,470
13,750
0
37
Lake Highlands, Dallas
The women have to carry them. Men don’t, yet we are trying to step in.

Maybe you aren’t old enough to remember women dying of botched homemade abortions but it wasnt infrequent. Conservatives ignore that but it happened and it would again.

I don’t want the government threatening women with prison if they don’t want to carry a pregnancy to term.
I know your position. I find it odd you can state, accurately, that the issue is an intersection of interests/rights but then refuse to acknowledge that those advocating for the protection of rights of one of those interested parties is somehow advocating for “unfair government intervention.” The precise role of government is the protection of rights. It’s simply a disagreement about who’s rights have priority: the person that’s inconvenienced or the person who’s life hangs in the balance.
 
Dec 26, 2011
2
5
0
The women have to carry them. Men don’t, yet we are trying to step in.

Maybe you aren’t old enough to remember women dying of botched homemade abortions but it wasnt infrequent. Conservatives ignore that but it happened and it would again.

I don’t want the government threatening women with prison if they don’t want to carry a pregnancy to term.

A. Women don't seem to mind when a bunch of men stepped in and affirmed Roe v Wade.
B. Women don''t seem to mind when a bunch of men create laws to abort children.
C. You don't have to be a woman to know killing a child is bad, just as you don't have to be a slave owner to know it's bad
D. The myth of rampant back alley abortions killing women left and right is not only false, as determined by the CDC, but it was purposely conflated to create the impression it was true to garner sympathy for pro-abortion rights. It's was as frequent as the number of women dying in the 3rd trimester therefore there's a need to have a law to allow it.
E. No one is suggesting women go to prison. That's more made up BS by the pro-abortion groups so guys like you have brain dead talking points. The laws recently passed in response to the democratic bills provides for prosecution of those who perform the abortions, not those who get the abortions.

You seem to be very uninformed on facts, like to make up your own or parrot those you've been told to say by the pro-abortion crowd.
 

JG

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Oct 29, 2008
62,322
12,959
0
I know your position. I find it odd you can state, accurately, that the issue is an intersection of interests/rights but then refuse to acknowledge that those advocating for the protection of rights of one of those interested parties is somehow advocating for “unfair government intervention.” The precise role of government is the protection of rights. It’s simply a disagreement about who’s rights have priority: the person that’s inconvenienced or the person who’s life hangs in the balance.
I use that term because conservatives are very fond of complaining about government...except when they want government to set up our society the way they want it.
A. Women don't seem to mind when a bunch of men stepped in and affirmed Roe v Wade.
B. Women don''t seem to mind when a bunch of men create laws to abort children.
C. You don't have to be a woman to know killing a child is bad, just as you don't have to be a slave owner to know it's bad
D. The myth of rampant back alley abortions killing women left and right is not only false, as determined by the CDC, but it was purposely conflated to create the impression it was true to garner sympathy for pro-abortion rights. It's was as frequent as the number of women dying in the 3rd trimester therefore there's a need to have a law to allow it.
E. No one is suggesting women go to prison. That's more made up BS by the pro-abortion groups so guys like you have brain dead talking points. The laws recently passed in response to the democratic bills provides for prosecution of those who perform the abortions, not those who get the abortions.

You seem to be very uninformed on facts, like to make up your own or parrot those you've been told to say by the pro-abortion crowd.
What happens if a woman intentionally performs a self abortion? You ok with that?

Guessing not...which means punishment.

I’m very informed on the facts. But you wouldn’t listen to them anyway.

This is a pointless discussion as we aren’t going to agree.
 

calvin farquhar

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Dec 19, 2017
8,523
15,546
0
Very much an act. Millennials like to make videos of themselves at some rally, & then throw it on Facebook & say "look at this video I just made"; they show up at BLM marches giving fake support & then display their racism at Ivy League university parties

VA governor Ralph Northam was an original millennial; democratic, anti-gun, pro-abortion, publicly pro-anything anti-white, socialist, & racist. & given his admitted pro-socialist, pro-abortion, racist background, the progressives on this board would vote for him over any republican
THe whole Northam thing died a quick death didn't it. The whole thing was sadly funny and typically hypocritical. The top 3 in Va were all accused for things the dems would scream require a republican to step down. Now, they sort of did, some telling Northam to step down and the number 2 could take over. After that, the number 2 was accused of groping a woman and some said step down so number 3 can take over. But, soon after, it was found number 3 also had a Northam problem and it was like crap, ok, number 3 step down and will let number 4 take over for Northam. That was the point the whole thing died and Norham said, I am a racist but I won't step down. The dem party said, yeah, its all bull**** anyway.

Now, as they say, for the rest of the story.

Northam-Dem, so we'll move on to number 2 (fairfax). Number 2-Dem, so we'll move to number 3. Number 3-Dem, so we'll have to move on to number 4. Number 4-Repbublican. Va Dem party-"ah, well, Northam is not so bad. We'll keep him".

True story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcb0703!

calvin farquhar

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Dec 19, 2017
8,523
15,546
0
I use that term because conservatives are very fond of complaining about government...except when they want government to set up our society the way they want it.


What happens if a woman intentionally performs a self abortion? You ok with that?

Guessing not...which means punishment.

I’m very informed on the facts. But you wouldn’t listen to them anyway.

This is a pointless discussion as we aren’t going to agree.
You're very informed on the bullet points.
 

bilbo t baggins

Member Who Talks
Aug 13, 2018
605
1,182
0
The bullet points are subjective. Someone on the pro life is simply going to believe differently than someone on the pro choice side.
Wrong. They moved the goalposts. I've been pro choice my entire life, but hearing a sitting governor talk about resuscitating a baby who is born and then deciding whether the baby should live is a wholly different conversation than we had in the past. The nuance has been lost, and now it's ideological. It always was to some degree on the right. But now it completely is on the left.