2020 Democratic Primaries

J Galt

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I use that term because conservatives are very fond of complaining about government...except when they want government to set up our society the way they want it.
Yeah, I know what you were trying to do but it’s a horrendously bad straw man. Look, I tend to lean pro-choice but arguing that pro-life positions seeking to protect the unborn is zealous government over-reach is so off the mark it’s comical.
 

calvin farquhar

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Yeah, I know what you were trying to do but it’s a horrendously bad straw man. Look, I tend to lean pro-choice but arguing that pro-life positions seeking to protect the unborn is zealous government over-reach is so off the mark it’s comical.
Well, he's also wrong that conservatives want government setting up society the way they want.. They actually want government to stay out of pretty much everything, or at the very least, limited in what they do.
 
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JG

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Well, he's also wrong that conservatives want government setting up society the way they want.. They actually want government to stay out of pretty much everything, or at the very least, limited in what they do.
Except when it comes to pregnant women.

Or gay people getting married.

Or people doing pot at home.

Or families trying to take advantage of asylum laws.
 

JG

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Yeah, I know what you were trying to do but it’s a horrendously bad straw man. Look, I tend to lean pro-choice but arguing that pro-life positions seeking to protect the unborn is zealous government over-reach is so off the mark it’s comical.
Like I said, we disagree. It’s ok. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
 

Halas

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A. Women don't seem to mind when a bunch of men stepped in and affirmed Roe v Wade.
B. Women don''t seem to mind when a bunch of men create laws to abort children.
C. You don't have to be a woman to know killing a child is bad, just as you don't have to be a slave owner to know it's bad
D. The myth of rampant back alley abortions killing women left and right is not only false, as determined by the CDC, but it was purposely conflated to create the impression it was true to garner sympathy for pro-abortion rights. It's was as frequent as the number of women dying in the 3rd trimester therefore there's a need to have a law to allow it.
E. No one is suggesting women go to prison. That's more made up BS by the pro-abortion groups so guys like you have brain dead talking points. The laws recently passed in response to the democratic bills provides for prosecution of those who perform the abortions, not those who get the abortions.

You seem to be very uninformed on facts, like to make up your own or parrot those you've been told to say by the pro-abortion crowd.
The guy you’re responding to is a dishonest dumbass so keep that in mind.
 

Zombie_Slayer

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I still think Joe can win. The math isn’t that hard to figure out. He needs to win critical Midwest states, and that is easily doable being that Trump won by less than 1% in several of those states.
 

mcb0703!

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A. Women don't seem to mind when a bunch of men stepped in and affirmed Roe v Wade.
B. Women don''t seem to mind when a bunch of men create laws to abort children.
C. You don't have to be a woman to know killing a child is bad, just as you don't have to be a slave owner to know it's bad
D. The myth of rampant back alley abortions killing women left and right is not only false, as determined by the CDC, but it was purposely conflated to create the impression it was true to garner sympathy for pro-abortion rights. It's was as frequent as the number of women dying in the 3rd trimester therefore there's a need to have a law to allow it.
E. No one is suggesting women go to prison. That's more made up BS by the pro-abortion groups so guys like you have brain dead talking points. The laws recently passed in response to the democratic bills provides for prosecution of those who perform the abortions, not those who get the abortions.

You seem to be very uninformed on facts, like to make up your own or parrot those you've been told to say by the pro-abortion crowd.
While everything you posted is correct, @JG believes Bret Kavanuagh will perform forced "back-alley abortions" on women, & then use his power on the Supreme Court to have these women arrested for having abortions.

But @JG also has the IQ equivalent to a bowling ball...just something to consider as well
 

SAhornfan

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Except when it comes to pregnant women.

Or gay people getting married.

Or people doing pot at home.

Or families trying to take advantage of asylum laws.
And the dems want the government out of their lives except to decide what we eat, how much we can earn, who our doctor is, whether the baby lives or dies. See, it works both ways. Your intellectual dishonesty is staggering.
 
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calvin farquhar

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Except when it comes to pregnant women.

Or gay people getting married.

Or people doing pot at home.

Or families trying to take advantage of asylum laws.

It's not about pregnant women, its about protecting the rights of the human being living in the woman. Her rights don't trump the childs. We want to protect the child's rights as much as the womans.

That's christian evangelicals/bible thumpers to include both parties. Hell, the black vote in Cali, democratic voters, were the primary reason the state law on gay marriage kept getting voted down (hispanic voters too) which is why the state decided to force it on them through the courts.

Also christian evangelicals but mostly those within the republicans.

They aren't citizens. We want to protect our citizens first, not illegals. We put our country first, not a group we hope will vote for us so **** the laws.
 
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UTGrad91

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It's not about pregnant women, its about protecting the rights of the human being living in the woman. Her rights don't trump the childs. We want to protect the child's rights as much as the womans.

That's christian evangelicals/bible thumpers to include both parties. Hell, the black vote in Cali, democratic voters, were the primary reason the state law on gay marriage kept getting voted down (hispanic voters too) which is why the state decided to force it on them through the courts.

Also christian evangelicals but mostly those within the republicans.

They aren't citizens. We want to protect our citizens first, not illegals. We put our country first, not a group we hope will vote for us so **** the laws.

You're weak, your thoughts are weak. Your need to portray republicans as the same as democrats is probably due to the same reason you think all white people are bad. Guilt. But keep swinging. You're bound to hit the ball once in a while.
Hispanic Americans are more pro life than the country as a whole and much more pro life than the democratic party in general. Yet another fault line in the Dems coalition of hypenated Americans.
 
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jamesrh

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If that can be done safely, fine with me.

The issue is more often with the baby at that point.
No it's not. I stated that there are plenty of late term abortions that would be safer for the mother if done as births and you said leave it to the doctor.
 

JG

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No it's not. I stated that there are plenty of late term abortions that would be safer for the mother if done as births and you said leave it to the doctor.
I meant that the issue in a late term abortion is more often a problem with the baby, not the mom.
 

jamesrh

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I meant that the issue in a late term abortion is more often a problem with the baby, not the mom.
I understood that. My not it's not, was to you statement that it was fine with you. Because I specifically stated that not only would it be safe, but in fact, safer and you said leave it to the doctor. Doctor's in these situations do not always make choices that are in the absolute best medical interest of the patient because there are political/legal issues involved.

And this isn't the only time when non-medical considerations affect your health care. But guess what, that doesn't get better under single payer, it gets worse.
 

cctxfan

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I don't think you understand what is meant when we mention "tyranny of the majority". You're arguing against the point and yet citing examples that are either aligned with the point or completely unrelated.
No, I understand exactly what is meant. I'm simply pointing out examples that actually are worse, in my opinion. Yes, in the traditional sense, the tyranny of the majority refers to a majority who governs at the expense of the minority. My examples show how the Texas Leg not just only does that (silly, bogus voter purges of voter rolls), they govern at the expense of the majority as well. Many times they pass laws or fail to pass laws that majority of Texans are against/for. In effect, it's the reverse: the minority dictating to the majority. It's good old Texas government telling its citizens what's good and bad for them. You don't need to gamble. You don't need to buy liquor on Sundays. You don't need to smoke to pot. And, until recently, they told you what was allowed in the bedroom and what wasn't. If you think about it, it's big government at its worst.
 

J Galt

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No, I understand exactly what is meant. I'm simply pointing out examples that actually are worse, in my opinion. Yes, in the traditional sense, the tyranny of the majority refers to a majority who governs at the expense of the minority. My examples show how the Texas Leg not just only does that (silly, bogus voter purges of voter rolls), they govern at the expense of the majority as well. Many times they pass laws or fail to pass laws that majority of Texans are against/for. In effect, it's the reverse: the minority dictating to the majority. It's good old Texas government telling its citizens what's good and bad for them. You don't need to gamble. You don't need to buy liquor on Sundays. You don't need to smoke to pot. And, until recently, they told you what was allowed in the bedroom and what wasn't. If you think about it, it's big government at its worst.
Ok. I’m not sure anyone disagrees. It’s just completely non-germane to the conversation. But, point taken.
 

cctxfan

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Yeah, I know what you were trying to do but it’s a horrendously bad straw man. Look, I tend to lean pro-choice but arguing that pro-life positions seeking to protect the unborn is zealous government over-reach is so off the mark it’s comical.
Yes, pro-life politicians passing anti-abortion bills is government overreach. That is, if you're pro choice, of course. What's comical to me is that neither side of this argument is ever going to reach an agreement. It's about defending the rights of the woman vs. those of the fetus/unborn. That's what it boils down to.

I'll end with this, though. Roe v. Wade may ultimately be overturned. But there will always be states where it is allowed and women have been attempting to terminate unwanted pregnancies for ages. We can go back to women trying various dangerous methods and killing themselves by banning abortion or we can make it safe, legal, and rarely used.

This is a general statement and not necessarily directed at you.
 
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JG

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I understood that. My not it's not, was to you statement that it was fine with you. Because I specifically stated that not only would it be safe, but in fact, safer and you said leave it to the doctor. Doctor's in these situations do not always make choices that are in the absolute best medical interest of the patient because there are political/legal issues involved.

And this isn't the only time when non-medical considerations affect your health care. But guess what, that doesn't get better under single payer, it gets worse.
I would rather have the doctor making that decision than the government.
 

J Galt

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Yes, pro-life politicians passing anti-abortion bills is government overreach. That is, if you're pro choice, of course.
No. This is 100% incorrect. The arguments on both sides is protecting individual liberty. As you pointed out , abortion in the singular issue where individual rights intersect in the same space (and one individual is both dependent and lacking a voice.) There is an extremely credible argument, on both sides of the debate, about individual liberty. If you can’t acknowledge that, you really don’t understand the debate. JG’s straw man is deliberately misrepresenting the opposition side.
 
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cctxfan

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No. This is 100% incorrect. The arguments on both sides is protecting individual liberty. As you pointed out , abortion in the singular issue where individual rights intersect in the same space (and one individual is both dependent and lacking a voice.) There is an extremely credible argument, on both sides of the debate, about individual liberty. If you can’t acknowledge that, you really don’t understand the debate. JG’s straw man is deliberately misrepresenting the opposition side.
No, it's 100% correct - just put another way. Pro choice folks think it's government overreach to tell a woman what she can't do with her body, ie, place a restriction on her individual liberty. Pro life folks don't see it this way, but rather siding with the unborn's right to life, ie, individual liberty over a woman's decision to end a pregnancy.

I'm not sure what you're arguing over since I'm not misrepresenting or disparaging the pro-life side of the debate. I perfectly realize that the debate is exactly whose individual liberty gets the higher pecking order.

EDIT: If you're calling JG's claim of 'big government overreach' a straw man, what phrase do you prefer when you feel government passes a law that infringes on your personal freedom and individual liberties?
 

jamesrh

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I would rather have the doctor making that decision than the government.
The government puts guidelines on medical care all the time. And there will be a metric crap ton more of that happening if the single payer system ever gets implemented.
 
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J Galt

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No, it's 100% correct - just put another way. Pro choice folks think it's government overreach to tell a woman what she can't do with her body, ie, place a restriction on her individual liberty. Pro life folks don't see it this way, but rather siding with the unborn's right to life, ie, individual liberty over a woman's decision to end a pregnancy.

I'm not sure what you're arguing over since I'm not misrepresenting or disparaging the pro-life side of the debate. I perfectly realize that the debate is exactly whose individual liberty gets the higher pecking order.

EDIT: If you're calling JG's claim of 'big government overreach' a straw man, what phrase do you prefer when you feel government passes a law that infringes on your personal freedom and individual liberties?
No, you misunderstand the point. Probably my fault. I’m agreeing with your summary of the dilemma. But the action is 100% not government “overreach”. It’s precisely the intended role of government. Instead its a philosophical disagreement on prioritization of rights. Which is why I disagree with the use of government overreach as a cogent argument.

Said another way, both sides are arguing over the “correct” use of government, not the misuse of government.
 

cctxfan

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No, you misunderstand the point. Probably my fault. I’m agreeing with your summary of the dilemma. But the action is 100% not government “overreach”. It’s precisely the intended role of government. Instead its a philosophical disagreement on prioritization of rights. Which is why I disagree with the use of government overreach as a cogent argument.

Said another way, both sides are arguing over the “correct” use of government, not the misuse of government.
Fair enough,
 

sacatomato horn

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NBC News is doing an extended piece on the entire MLB-Roster sized Democrat candidate list, about halfway through it. Each candidate lists their "One Big Idea". The results so far:

Castro: Universal Pre K
Harris: Raises for Teachers
Gillbrand: Paid Family Leave
Inslee: Climate Change
Booker: Baby Bonds (had to look this up. $1,000 for every baby that survives infanticide legislation, means tested up to $2,000 for low income families)
Buttigieg: Abolish the Electoral College, because if you can't win, change the rules (that will play well in Wisconsin)
Sanders: Mediccare Medicaid for all.
Hickenlooper: Skills training

One big idea from the remaining candidates is pending. So far, the list is lacking: Packing the Supreme Court, Abolition of the Senate, Reparations, Abolition of ICE, Israel BDS, reconstituting the Iran Nuclear Deal, and Prison for Donald Trump.
 
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mcb0703!

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NBC News is doing an extended piece on the entire MLB-Roster sized Democrat candidate list, about halfway through it. Each candidate lists their "One Big Idea". The results so far:

Castro: Universal Pre K
Harris: Raises for Teachers
Gillbrand: Paid Family Leave
Inslee: Climate Change
Booker: Baby Bonds (had to look this up. $1,000 for every baby that survives infanticide legislation, means tested up to $2,000 for low income families)
Buttigieg: Abolish the Electoral College, because if you can't win, change the rules (that will play well in Wisconsin)
Sanders: Mediccare Medicaid for all.
Hickenlooper: Skills training

One big idea from the remaining candidates is pending. So far, the list is lacking: Packing the Supreme Court, Abolition of the Senate, Reparations, Abolition of ICE, Israel BDS, reconstituting the Iran Nuclear Deal, and Prison for Donald Trump.
Beto: Fake Hispanic who fantasizes about killing children by running them over in his car
 

UTGrad91

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Biden says he can win in the South. He doesn't need to win in the south if he takes Wisky, Mich, and Penn so it begs the question why would he waste his time in the South? Could be making the same mistake as HRC in 2016:

 

UTGrad91

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This is one I’m actually interested in. The other ones are either unfeasible or stuff that’s been mentioned 1000 times which no one follows through on (pay teachers). Paying them more doesn’t help quality either
Skills training is not a bad idea. There are millions of skilled labor jobs (plumbers, welders, electricians, carpenters, IT, med techs, etc) that go unfilled due to lack of qualified candidates. Instead of people living on the government dole, it would make more sense to teach them a marketable skill.
 

JG

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Biden says he can win in the South. He doesn't need to win in the south if he takes Wisky, Mich, and Penn so it begs the question why would he waste his time in the South? Could be making the same mistake as HRC in 2016:

He doesn’t need those states to win the general but he needs moderate voters there to win the nomination.
 

calvin farquhar

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Skills training is not a bad idea. There are millions of skilled labor jobs (plumbers, welders, electricians, carpenters, IT, med techs, etc) that go unfilled due to lack of qualified candidates. Instead of people living on the government dole, it would make more sense to teach them a marketable skill.
Agree. College isn't for everyone and we need to stop, as a society, propagating everyone should go to college. For too many it's less about a desire to get a degree, one that is worth a **** anyway, and more about putting off adulthood while getting the "college experience".

While I am on my pedestal, I recently went to registration/orientation with my daughter. Something I observed while watching as the school dismissed students by degree program to go to a class advising session. When education, nursing, sports medicine/kinesiology, psychology students were dismissed it was probably 90% female and 10% male. When engineering (all types), math, sciences (not future teachers) and business majors were dismissed it was 90% male and 10% female. Apparently the patriarchy has told future students they must go into specific majors based on gender so we can keep things they way we like. Although, it could be males and females just enjoy different career paths.
 

calvin farquhar

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This is one I’m actually interested in. The other ones are either unfeasible or stuff that’s been mentioned 1000 times which no one follows through on (pay teachers). Paying them more doesn’t help quality either
That's definitely a good one.

The others have merit but, universal pre-k, which, as a parent, would have been great, is probably cost prohibitive. Teacher pay raises is to pander to the union for an endorsement though, yes, everyone says this but as you said, no one will do anything. Paid family leave I understand but should be left to corporate with the govt staying out of it. But at least they are trying.
 

sacatomato horn

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Skills training is not a bad idea. There are millions of skilled labor jobs (plumbers, welders, electricians, carpenters, IT, med techs, etc) that go unfilled due to lack of qualified candidates. Instead of people living on the government dole, it would make more sense to teach them a marketable skill.
Agree. Hickenlooper has other planks in his platform that I am against but this one is worth allocation of taxpayer money. Better than Andrew Yang's Universal Basic Income to pay people not to work.

The Northern California Builder's Association has all sorts of apprenticeships\paid programs they offer, due to the lack of young people entering the trades. The builders here in my neck of the woods are begging for skilled craftsmen.
 

calvin farquhar

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Agree. Hickenlooper has other planks in his platform that I am against but this one is worth allocation of taxpayer money. Better than Andrew Yang's Universal Basic Income to pay people not to work.

The Northern California Builder's Association has all sorts of apprenticeships\paid programs they offer, due to the lack of young people entering the trades. The builders here in my neck of the woods are begging for skilled craftsmen.
And you can make a darn good living at it.
 

J Galt

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He doesn’t need those states to win the general but he needs moderate voters there to win the nomination.
I've been hearing from multiple different sources (not insider) that Biden is likely not going to win the nomination. Basically, he's in the Jeb Bush position now: name recognition and perceived as stable but doesn't deliver enough red meat to what the electorate wants. Sanders, despite polling well behind Biden today, scores damn near off the charts on delivering the messaging and sentiment scores that typically carry the nomination.
 

JG

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I've been hearing from multiple different sources (not insider) that Biden is likely not going to win the nomination. Basically, he's in the Jeb Bush position now: name recognition and perceived as stable but doesn't deliver enough red meat to what the electorate wants. Sanders, despite polling well behind Biden today, scores damn near off the charts on delivering the messaging and sentiment scores that typically carry the nomination.
I’m not buying Sanders. Maybe someone else can besides Sanders consolidate enough support to win, but Bernie has very little support from minorities, and it’s damn hard to win the nomination without that.

Biden’s strategy is he’s going to beat Trump, and that will silence enough left wing critics to win the nomination. Not saying he WILL beat Trump, just that it’s his strategy.
 
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J Galt

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I’m not buying Sanders. Maybe someone else can besides Sanders consolidate enough support to win, but Bernie has very little support from minorities, and it’s damn hard to win the nomination without that.
Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom and it could certainly play out that way. But what these other voices are saying is that conventional wisdom gets it wrong a lot and what's far more important to understand is the power of the narrative that a candidate can generate. In that regard, Sanders excels.

Biden’s strategy is he’s going to beat Trump, and that will silence enough left wing critics to win the nomination. Not saying he WILL beat Trump, just that it’s his strategy.
Well sure, but every Democrat running will be saying they can beat Trump. Biden's lead in the primary polls against other Dems is far more impressive than his head-to-head spread over Trump relative to Sanders' spread over Trump. Again, what these other predictors are alluding to is that its not just what you say you can do, its what the common knowledge of the masses believe to be true. In that regard, narrative creation and promotion becomes paramount. It's essentially what carried Trump.
 

sacatomato horn

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Gundlach is a sobering read. Combination of Jurassic Joe and the probability of a recession in the next year would mean Sanders not only wins the nomination but captures the presidency, concurrent with Gundlach's prediction the US is perilously close to a fiscal crisis. A democratic socialist dealing with a fiscal crisis.