2020 Democratic Primaries

Shane3

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Will be the law of the country. Maybe not now but it’s coming. Don’t fight it, lean into it.
Seriously? You want healthcare for illegals? And then you wonder why people from all over the world are incentivized to sneak in here.
 

Shane3

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This faux outrage is nonsense. No one here has read any policy paper on what the CA law does or why it was put in place. You only see it as a give away as mentioned in some right wing propaganda article.
Radio report yesterday is that CA will give healthcare, in the first year alone, for up to 90K young illegals. 25 years of age and under, IIRC. It’s outrageous that we’re providing healthcare for illegals, free I believe, when we have US veterans living on the streets. :(
 

TEXBTP

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Seriously? You want healthcare for illegals? And then you wonder why people from all over the world are incentivized to sneak in here.
I want healthcare for all. Period. I’m pretty sure under that kind of system anyone that uses a medical clinic will not have to pay. It’s like this in Canada and Europe and I want that here.
We already spend more tax payer money per person on medicine than all the other countries with universal healthcare. To me that means we have an incredibly inefficient market and if we use the Euro system as s model we can have a better allocation of resources and better healthcare for our citizens.
 
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TEXBTP

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Seriously? You want healthcare for illegals? And then you wonder why people from all over the world are incentivized to sneak in here.
Btw, I never said I supported that law. I only support giving healthcare to people that use our clinics in a similar fashion to Canada and Europe. I don’t know much about the CA law so I can’t have an informed opinion. From what I do know, there is always more to a law than gets reported by a bias source.
 

Shane3

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Btw, I never said I supported that law. I only support giving healthcare to people that use our clinics in a similar fashion to Canada and Europe. I don’t know much about the CA law so I can’t have an informed opinion. From what I do know, there is always more to a law than gets reported by a bias source.
Is NPR biased, in your opinion?

 

eodhorn

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You have the right to have a say in how your are governed. That doesn’t mean you get everything you want.

If 51 senators, 218 representatives, and one president agree to pay for that, then it certainly isn’t imperial or taxation without representation. You have a voice. The colonials did not.
I wonder how many of those state representatives, including the governor, were saying they were going to tax citizens to pay for healthcare of non-citizens on the campaign trail. Because if they didn’t, then they are not representing their legal constituents.
 

TEXBTP

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Is NPR biased, in your opinion?

Yes I like NPR. It’s a little left bias but still pretty accurate in its news.
So basically it is giving more subsidy to people and giving healthcare to undocumented and documented immigrants between 19-25. Seems like they could carve out an exception for undocumented workers. Likely would give some savings to the state, and still accomplish most of its goals.
This article doesn’t give a policy reason for giving them healthcare other than a moral reasons.
 

eodhorn

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I want healthcare for all. Period. I’m pretty sure under that kind of system anyone that uses a medical clinic will not have to pay. It’s like this in Canada and Europe and I want that here.
We already spend more tax payer money per person on medicine than all the other countries with universal healthcare. To me that means we have an incredibly inefficient market and if we use the Euro system as s model we can have a better allocation of resources and better healthcare for our citizens.
Canada and Europe do not have even close to the amount of illegal immigration that we do. As we speak European countries with socialized healthcare are actually rethinking it because as their populations are aging it is becoming evident their model is not sustainable. We are already the most taxed nation in the world. Most taxed + highest amount of illegal immigration = economy crusher. This is how nations die.
 

padrehorn11

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Nah, we can't allow people who came here illegally a pathway to citizenship ahead of people who applied legally to come here and have waited patiently for many years. It's patently unfair.

Fair, my sister's black cat's ass. Where the hell did you ever get the idea life is fair, or even supposed to be? But anyway, I didn't mean to say immediately or at the head of the line. I think they should earn that right. By that, I mean working and paying taxes for some period and also pay a fee.

But hell, I kind of admire people who have come here illegally for the betterment of their family. I think we should make it a lot harder, damn near impossible going forward. But I guarandamntee one thing, to get a better life for my family, I'd sure as hell break immigration law and try to cross that border, or overstay my visa.

But then I've never been very good at respecting authority. Hell, that was my biggest obstacle in excepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I'm going to admit something here that will probably piss off anyone who suffered enrollment at UT 50 years ago. When I first registered for classes at UT, you had to line up, file into un-airconditioned Gregory Gym, and go from table to table, stand in line at each one, and if the class you wanted weren't full yet you got one the cards for the various course were set out at various tables. You took your cards, and then went and paid the tuition and fees. Since I never stood in the line like a damned sheep, I forget what the criteria was for getting your place in line was. It could have been who showed up first or alphabetical, or they pulled a number out of your ass. Anyway, being naturally inclined to outfox authority, I sneaked in the back way where everyone was exiting, went behind the tables like I was working there--they had students doing most of the work--and thus skipped the lines in front of the tables. I just acted like I belonged there and grabbed the classes at the times with the profs I wanted. I got 'caught' a few times, but I broke for freedom and got away. Being short helps sometimes. OK.,, that's not the same thing as illegal immigration of course , but you know it was "patently unfair" to the sheep waiting patiently in line. NOT. MY. PROBLEM.

OK, I'm a baaaaad person, I admit it. Y'all think everyone should obey the law. All laws of the land, with the exception of traffic laws of course. Have you ever been guilty of DUI, but not caught? If you have, that's not "patently unfair" it's just putting other people's lives at risk because you had too good a time and didn't have the sense or cash left to take a cab or get a sober friend to drive or whatever. I'm guilty, back when I drank...but I was lucky and a good drunk driver and never got caught. A cop told me once after that they usually catch the rookies who don't drink that often, not the experienced drunks. But that was the worst thing I've ever done, and when I think back, I thank God I never hurt or killed or even ran into anyone. It seems way worse than just "unfair", but the law has caught up and it's bad if you do get caught...I guess. Couldn't say for sure since it never did or now ever will happen to me.

Now finally for the law and order types: Ask yourself if you would voluntarily turn in all your firearms (including, like all of mine, the unregistered ones) if that became a Federal Law and a Democrat packed Supreme Court upheld the law? That isn't going to happen soon, but I think there's a distinct possibility that it will in the future. Will I meekly obey if I'm still of alive then? Well of course I will.
 
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JG

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I wonder how many of those state representatives, including the governor, were saying they were going to tax citizens to pay for healthcare of non-citizens on the campaign trail. Because if they didn’t, then they are not representing their legal constituents.
Sure they are.

There will be more elections, and if their constituents don’t want to pay for health care for non citizens they can vote for someone else.
 

JG

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Canada and Europe do not have even close to the amount of illegal immigration that we do. As we speak European countries with socialized healthcare are actually rethinking it because as their populations are aging it is becoming evident their model is not sustainable. We are already the most taxed nation in the world. Most taxed + highest amount of illegal immigration = economy crusher. This is how nations die.
We are definitely not the most taxed nation in the world. Canada and most European countries have higher taxes.

And have you not been following the Brexit deal? Europe has their own immigration issues.
 

U.S. Bates

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I want healthcare for all. Period. I’m pretty sure under that kind of system anyone that uses a medical clinic will not have to pay. It’s like this in Canada and Europe and I want that here.
We already spend more tax payer money per person on medicine than all the other countries with universal healthcare. To me that means we have an incredibly inefficient market and if we use the Euro system as s model we can have a better allocation of resources and better healthcare for our citizens.
Just visited Canada a year ago. As an American, who was there legally, i was informed I’d be billed (a pretty penny at that) if my wife or i had a medical emergency.


Nothing happened, thank god, so i don’t know if that’s true but if so, that’s not what your interpretation of their healthcare system actually is but what Dems are proposing to do here (to pander for votes).

I have great, affordable insurance. It would certainly cost me personally more money for what i imagine would be less great care in that system and knowing those things and adding in “paying” for people who are here illegally is outrageous to me. I assume a lot of other people feel that way too.
 

UTGrad91

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This faux outrage is nonsense. No one here has read any policy paper on what the CA law does or why it was put in place. You only see it as a give away as mentioned in some right wing propaganda article.
The way medicaid works is that states chip in a small percentage of the total medicaid expenditures from their state and then Uncle Sam picks up the bulk. Thus, unless there's an exception then other states will be paying for the medicaid costs of illegals in Cali under this law. I'm sure the law will be challenged in court and hopefully overturned.
 
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UTGrad91

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Fair, my sister's black cat's ass. Where the hell did you ever get the idea life is fair, or even supposed to be? But anyway, I didn't mean to say immediately or at the head of the line. I think they should earn that right. By that, I mean working and paying taxes for some period and also pay a fee.

But hell, I kind of admire people who have come here illegally for the betterment of their family. I think we should make it a lot harder, damn near impossible going forward. But I guarandamntee one thing, to get a better life for my family, I'd sure as hell break immigration law and try to cross that border, or overstay my visa.

But then I've never been very good at respecting authority. Hell, that was my biggest obstacle in excepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I'm going to admit something here that will probably piss off anyone who suffered enrollment at UT 50 years ago. When I first registered for classes at UT, you had to line up, file into un-airconditioned Gregory Gym, and go from table to table, stand in line at each one, and if the class you wanted weren't full yet you got one the cards for the various course were set out at various tables. You took your cards, and then went and paid the tuition and fees. Since I never stood in the line like a damned sheep, I forget what the criteria was for getting your place in line was. It could have been who showed up first or alphabetical, or they pulled a number out of your ass. Anyway, being naturally inclined to outfox authority, I sneaked in the back way where everyone was exiting, went behind the tables like I was working there--they had students doing most of the work--and thus skipped the lines in front of the tables. I just acted like I belonged there and grabbed the classes at the times with the profs I wanted. I got 'caught' a few times, but I broke for freedom and got away. Being short helps sometimes. OK.,, that's not the same thing as illegal immigration of course , but you know it was "patently unfair" to the sheep waiting patiently in line. NOT. MY. PROBLEM.

OK, I'm a baaaaad person, I admit it. Y'all think everyone should obey the law. All laws of the land, with the exception of traffic laws of course. Have you ever been guilty of DUI, but not caught? If you have, that's not "patently unfair" it's just putting other people's lives at risk because you had too good a time and didn't have the sense or cash left to take a cab or get a sober friend to drive or whatever. I'm guilty, back when I drank...but I was lucky and a good drunk driver and never got caught. A cop told me once after that they usually catch the rookies who don't drink that often, not the experienced drunks. But that was the worst thing I've ever done, and when I think back, I thank God I never hurt or killed or even ran into anyone. It seems way worse than just "unfair", but the law has caught up and it's bad if you do get caught...I guess. Couldn't say for sure since it never did or now ever will happen to me.

Now finally for the law and order types: Ask yourself if you would voluntarily turn in all your firearms (including, like all of mine, the unregistered ones) if that became a Federal Law and a Democrat packed Supreme Court upheld the law? That isn't going to happen soon, but I think there's a distinct possibility that it will in the future. Will I meekly obey if I'm still of alive then? Well of course I will.
I don't mind illegals becoming citizens but there's no need for the so called "pathway to citizenship". Those who want to become citizens can apply like everyone else and get in the waiting line.
 
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padrehorn11

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I don't mind illegals becoming citizens but there's no need for the so called "pathway to citizenship". Those who want to become citizens can apply like everyone else and get in the waiting line.
Well ok, we disagree. NOte: see my post below, maybe we don't disagree much. I just realized that you said you felt they could apply for citizenship like everyone else so my whole post starts from an incorrect premise because I made an assumption that was partially wrong. I too would make it hard to gain citizenship, and there would be a wait. But I wouldn't deport them though(assuming they were working regularly and had no criminal record), or put the same conditions on them Trump seems to want, especially not their children. BTW would you end DACA?

What would you, personally. do if you had a small tienda in Matamoros, and a family you loved. And you saw increasing lawlessness and chaos around you pointing at nothing but a worse life in the future for you and especially your kids? And then the Narcos demanded even higher payoffs from you and the other small businesses around you and killed one who was getting behind as an example to the others. And you faced years, if not the rest of your life, or the destruction of your children waiting to cross legally. Maybe you'd wait patiently. I'm not made that way. My family trumps everything but the Lord for me, and the love I feel for both are inseparable.

I knew someone in the Valley with just that history I described above, a really nice guy and a damn hard worker. If you think I was going to turn him in to the "authorities", you don't have much of a clue about the kind of person I am. Not only that, but when his daughter really wanted a wind instrument to play in the Middle school band--something they just couldn't afford--I gave it to her for a birthday present. These people were not a "social cost", they are part of a better future America, in my opinion. Is that true of all illegals? By all means no, but as I said, let's let some time test them and if they do right, hold jobs, educate their kids, etc, then I don't see a good reason for not offering a path to citizenship, at the very least to the children.
 
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padrehorn11

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I just corrected my post above. I didn't read your post correctly and made a bad assumption. My apology @UTGrad91 . I'm still going to leave the rest because I think it's worthwhile to hear personal experiences from someone who is probably more familiar with illegal immigrants as people than most here.
 

padrehorn11

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I see Trump wants to start the raids. Hauling away people from their jobs seems just stupid to me. What a ****ing waste of resources. Catch criminals, not workers. Trump, I now believe gets a lot of things right. I still think he's "often wrong but never in doubt" because of his ego driven self-love.

But I'd vote for him a hundred times if I could over Socialists/communists. I still wouldn't let him use my bathroom though.
 
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btown1110

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I want healthcare for all. Period. I’m pretty sure under that kind of system anyone that uses a medical clinic will not have to pay. It’s like this in Canada and Europe and I want that here.
We already spend more tax payer money per person on medicine than all the other countries with universal healthcare. To me that means we have an incredibly inefficient market and if we use the Euro system as s model we can have a better allocation of resources and better healthcare for our citizens.
The rising cost of healthcare is largely due an aging population, who is where the bulk of government healthcare has been going for years (and is one of the most inefficient parts of the federal government), and you think that transferring control OF ALL HEALTHCARE to the government is going to be a net positive? Are you serious?
 
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UTGrad91

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But we should award those that did come illegally with healthcare? Because those that have applied in their home countries still don't have US healthcare. That's patently illogical.
Not sure where you're coming from. I'm against giving illegals healthcare.
 

TEXBTP

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The rising cost of healthcare is largely due an aging population, who is where the bulk of government healthcare has been going for years (and is one of the most inefficient parts of the federal government), and you think that transferring control OF ALL HEALTHCARE to the government is going to be a net positive? Are you serious?
These demographic changes are the same in other countries as well. They don’t seem to have the same problems we do. Its not like our country simply sucks at administration
 

UTGrad91

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I just corrected my post above. I didn't read your post correctly and made a bad assumption. My apology @UTGrad91 . I'm still going to leave the rest because I think it's worthwhile to hear personal experiences from someone who is probably more familiar with illegal immigrants as people than most here.
NP Padre and just for the record, I don't have anything against people that come here illegally to better themselves economically. The fault is that we allow it to happen. Need a plan that regulates it so that workers can come here and fill jobs that Americans can't or won't do while also not busting the budget in the process with social costs.
 
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TEXBTP

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What if we gave illegals free healthcare of the kind they could expect in their nations?
I think Mexico already has free healthcare. I’m not sure about Central America. Id be fine giving our nations poor whatever they get in Mexico, by extension everyone else as well.
 

Duke Silver

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I think Mexico already has free healthcare. I’m not sure about Central America. Id be fine giving our nations poor whatever they get in Mexico, by extension everyone else as well.
Well, if all you’re advocating is to give out bandaids and robitussin, I think we can handle that.
 

padrehorn11

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I'm against 'giving' health care to anyone but olds and poor children. Everyone else can work and buy insurance.

And I'm not upset that Social security check is dinged before I see it, and dinged hard for Medicare because of my income (though of course it's still Taxable Income) and most of the rest I get I turn around and pay to Supplemental which is also paid at a higher rate because of my income. I can buy you a nice lunch each month with what's left. Like I say, it seems fair enough to me that I'm essentially paying the same for insurance as I did before I turned 65, simply because I can afford it.

Now just because I'm old, making me pay full costs sans insurance for the cancerous tumor ablation procedure I had a couple of weeks ago, and adding to that because of my income, and/or disallowing coverage for that would probably eat up a very large chunk of what I saved and invested for retirement for many years, well, I'm not willing to say I'd be happy to pay it out of pocket. I'm going to be real interested to see how much it actually cost. I have to think it's huge. Medicare and Supplemental Medicare are the best buys I've ever made. All those doctors and machines cost an incredible amount of money, as does the research that makes the procedures better all the time, which may help some of you some day. But I have a price point where, (if it were out-of-pocket) I'd say, " forget the procedure, keep the morphine ready" and then hope they have good sports coverage in Heaven. I want to leave something for my daughter, who has her own health problems.

But as it stands, it looks like the procedure worked and added many years to my life if a tree don't fall on me. Time will tell. I've got a new charity on my donation list though.
 
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padrehorn11

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NP Padre and just for the record, I don't have anything against people that come here illegally to better themselves economically. The fault is that we allow it to happen. Need a plan that regulates it so that workers can come here and fill jobs that Americans can't or won't do while also not busting the budget in the process with social costs.
I think if you look into it you may find the social costs (except education) are much less than you might think. It's hard to pin down, but it didn't seem, at this point, to be all that that large a net cost. There are a lot of myths about what they get. Not counting education, it's not all so very much, and it's about the same or less per capita than equivalent citizens get, and they pay more in taxes than a lot of people think.

And, in addition, I think a lot of the same arguments seem to me to apply, as to why should I pay for other people's children to be educated since my daughter is long out of school. I pay a lot of property taxes, mainly because so much of my income is oil and gas royalty properties, and so I'm subsidizing the education of a lot y'all's kids. I'm ok with that, it makes good economic sense, but I don' care if the kids are here strictly legally or not. One kid is pretty much the same as another to me (except my grandson) in that regard--as long as they are learning. If they aren't, well, adios muchachos.
 
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padrehorn11

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Well, if all you’re advocating is to give out bandaids and robitussin, I think we can handle that.
Actually it can be pretty good care in Mexico. My Dad had a minor stroke down there, and was immediately treated. He spent a while in hospital, but pretty much recovered and it was all free. And he wasn't a Mexican citizen (though if he'd wanted to he could have become one).
 

Duke Silver

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Actually it can be pretty good care in Mexico. My Dad had a minor stroke down there, and was immediately treated. He spent a while in hospital, but pretty much recovered and it was all free. And he wasn't a Mexican citizen (though if he'd wanted to he could have become one).
I was really referring to the northern triangle.
 

eodhorn

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These demographic changes are the same in other countries as well. They don’t seem to have the same problems we do. Its not like our country simply sucks at administration

They do, I have posted an article a few different times on these forums how a few Nordic countries are having to move on from socialized healthcare because of aging population. But it’s not the only reason. Socialized medicine is starting to fail everywhere for a myriad of reasons, and in Europe this is causing private healthcare to rise:

 

calvin farquhar

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They do, I have posted an article a few different times on these forums how a few Nordic countries are having to move on from socialized healthcare because of aging population. But it’s not the only reason. Socialized medicine is starting to fail everywhere for a myriad of reasons, and in Europe this is causing private healthcare to rise:

Single payer or medicare for all in the U.S. will collapse the economy and fail spectacularly. Hopefully I will be gone before it comes to fruition, though if I am not the system itself will probably kill me. I want to feel bad for the youth out there that will be subjected to it, but, they're also the ones who think it's the greatest.

It's amazing people can't grasp the basic math of why it won't work. Guaranteed whatever they say the cost will be, which right now is something like 2T per year, it will almost certainly be twice that amount each year, especially since the dems want to provide it free to anyone and everyone who sneaks across the border. It's a nonsensical approach to fixing the system. Sounds great on the campaign trail though.
 

JG

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Single payer or medicare for all in the U.S. will collapse the economy and fail spectacularly. Hopefully I will be gone before it comes to fruition, though if I am not the system itself will probably kill me. I want to feel bad for the youth out there that will be subjected to it, but, they're also the ones who think it's the greatest.

It's amazing people can't grasp the basic math of why it won't work. Guaranteed whatever they say the cost will be, which right now is something like 2T per year, it will almost certainly be twice that amount each year, especially since the dems want to provide it free to anyone and everyone who sneaks across the border. It's a nonsensical approach to fixing the system. Sounds great on the campaign trail though.
Some questions for you.

1) Almost every other industrialized country in the world has some sort of single payer or medicare for all. It hasn't collapsed their economies. Why not?

2) How is this going to add massive amounts of costs? Are there people now that are going without health care because they can't pay for it?
 

eodhorn

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Some questions for you.

1) Almost every other industrialized country in the world has some sort of single payer or medicare for all. It hasn't collapsed their economies. Why not?

2) How is this going to add massive amounts of costs? Are there people now that are going without health care because they can't pay for it?
Did you read the article I provided? It is collapsing their economies, and they are reacting through privatized health care.
 

calvin farquhar

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Some questions for you.

1) Almost every other industrialized country in the world has some sort of single payer or medicare for all. It hasn't collapsed their economies. Why not?

2) How is this going to add massive amounts of costs? Are there people now that are going without health care because they can't pay for it?
1. Read the article. It's happening in other countries and they are not nearly the size as the U.S. It will collapse our economy, particularly the healthcare sector and related areas of business. To what extent will depend on what form is adopted.

2. Estimates on a per year basis for just healthcare will double the budget. I'd bet that number is low, by a lot.

None of that even begins to touch on the quality of care, wait lists, qualifying for certain care and on and on. Again, that is already happening elsewhere.
 
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scout3dave

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Single payer or medicare for all in the U.S. will collapse the economy and fail spectacularly. Hopefully I will be gone before it comes to fruition, though if I am not the system itself will probably kill me. I want to feel bad for the youth out there that will be subjected to it, but, they're also the ones who think it's the greatest.

It's amazing people can't grasp the basic math of why it won't work. Guaranteed whatever they say the cost will be, which right now is something like 2T per year, it will almost certainly be twice that amount each year, especially since the dems want to provide it free to anyone and everyone who sneaks across the border. It's a nonsensical approach to fixing the system. Sounds great on the campaign trail though.
@padrehorn11 made a comment not long ago about the cost of free Medicare. Holy ****, I just signed up for the basic as I will turn 65 in October. I will be paying about the same amount as my work policy - only the company paid most of that. When you include the supplemental policy I will be paying around $800 month. Health benefits are better but drugs are significantly worse. If you want vision and dental forget it. It will probably drop in a couple of years when our AGI drops but until then it is pretty crappy. This free health care is going to put a dent in my golf plans.
 
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JG

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Did you read the article I provided? It is collapsing their economies, and they are reacting through privatized health care.
Every other economy in the world is collapsing?
 

padrehorn11

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Texas
@padrehorn11 made a comment not long ago about the cost of free Medicare. Holy ****, I just signed up for the basic as I will turn 65 in October. I will be paying about the same amount as my work policy - only the company paid most of that. When you include the supplemental policy I will be paying around $800 month. Health benefits are better but drugs are significantly worse. If you want vision and dental forget it. It will probably drop in a couple of years when our AGI drops but until then it is pretty crappy. This free health care is going to put a dent in my golf plans.
Yep, you won't save money if you have a very good income after retirement and get a good Supplemental plan. I'm happy to have the income and pay the extra though. It's hard to say you're retired when you've always been self-employed and you simply change the focus of your work. I never had anyone else to pay my policy, so I paid for all my crowns and glasses myself so that didn't matter, and had basically a catastrophic major med. Before Obamacare, I had to have a special policy through a large group insurance with my Professional organization to pay for pre-existing. And the best I could do still had some copay, along with being more expensive. But I was happy just to get it and I'm even happier to get Medicare. I thank God everyday for many things, and American healthcare and Medicare are part of the crowd. Which is another reason I'm a generous giver and now I've got another charity on my list.

And though Medicare used to be a bad plan I've heard, it's now (with the Supplemental) the best I've ever had (though again, I chose to be a 'lone wolf' and didn't get a W-2 after 1979--part of that problem I have with Authority). Before, I still ended up with some significant out-of-pockets. Now I pay virtually nothing OOP for actual care, though the test will be this last procedure which I can't even guess what it cost.


PS I don't know about your Part D drug plan, but mine is very reasonable. It's AARP-Humana. My supplemental is AARP-United Healthcare. AARP's politics suck, IMO, but for a guy like me it's good Insurance. So I just send back their 'push' questionnaires with pithy disagreement replies and "F your Democrats who are 'Fighting for me' ".
 

eodhorn

Member Who Talks (A Lot!)
Mar 24, 2018
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Surprise, Arizona
Every other economy in the world is collapsing?
It didn’t list every economy. It lists most of what we’re previously considered successful socialized healthcare systems that are now showing cracks and are threatened with collapse. France, Germany, UK etc. It also talks about how those countries are now looking to free market, privatized health care to reduce cost.

Basically socializing health care eventually begins to become an unsustainable burden on the economy, as well as lags in actual quality of care. The way these countries are trying to address these shortcomings is private healthcare providers.