9/11 Fund

JG

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This needs to happen. I am no fan of Jon Stewart, but I am damn proud of him. And the fact that so many people abuse social programs and want to expand them to non-citizens etc sickens me. Social Entitlement Reform and use whatever fraud, waste, and abuse money is saved to this 911 bill.
Link to it?
 

JG

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Let’s do it.

The wall...Medicare...food stamps...everything but VA could be cut to fund this.
 

mcb0703!

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I’ve always liked Stewart. He’s obviously liberal but he’s sharp and carries himself really well when speaking with conservative show hosts. And his show was actually really funny
Agree with all this. Very intelligent, sure he’s a lib, but he's always kept other libs in check when they've gone overboard as well...& his work with various wounded warrior organizations is exceptional

Big fan of Jon Stewart
 
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bilbo t baggins

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I’ve always liked Stewart. He’s obviously liberal but he’s sharp and carries himself really well when speaking with conservative show hosts. And his show was actually really funny
He leaned left but he did **** on liberals too, just sometimes with kiddy gloves on. But whatever, I just ask that we **** on everyone. He was great, and seems to me like someone who actually means what he says.
 

eodhorn

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Let’s do it.

The wall...Medicare...food stamps...everything but VA could be cut to fund this.
I haven’t seen proposals on cost, but limiting welfare, food stamps (for example if you are not handicapped you should be working and using welfare as supplemental not primary income), absolutely zero dollars for non citizen residents, close tax loopholes on big businesses (Amazon, Facebook, etc should definitely not be able to avoid taxes like they have), and get immigration reform completely done (mostly legislation on Asylum laws, funding for border security, closing the economic drain on illegal immigration), and cut fraud waste and abuse with military contracts and we should have more than enough to fund this.

I would avoid cutting anything health care related, we don’t need to make that ****show worse.
 
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JG

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I haven’t seen proposals on cost, but limiting welfare, food stamps (for example if you are not handicapped you should be working and using welfare as supplemental not primary income), absolutely zero dollars for non citizen residents, close tax loopholes on big businesses (Amazon, Facebook, etc should definitely not be able to avoid taxes like they have), and get immigration reform completely done (mostly legislation on Asylum laws, funding for border security, closing the economic drain on illegal immigration), and cut fraud waste and abuse with military contracts and we should have more than enough to fund this.

I would avoid cutting anything health care related, we don’t need to make that ****show worse.
You realize that we aren’t that far apart politically? You and I could sit down and compromise and solve most of the crap that DC can’t deal with.
 

JG

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Sometimes I think that, sometimes I don’t. It is refreshing when we do.
We don’t agree on that much...but we aren’t as far apart as a lot of people on either side. Room meet in he middle, if we were both so inclined.
 
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padrehorn11

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I haven’t seen proposals on cost, but limiting welfare, food stamps (for example if you are not handicapped you should be working and using welfare as supplemental not primary income), absolutely zero dollars for non citizen residents, close tax loopholes on big businesses (Amazon, Facebook, etc should definitely not be able to avoid taxes like they have), and get immigration reform completely done (mostly legislation on Asylum laws, funding for border security, closing the economic drain on illegal immigration), and cut fraud waste and abuse with military contracts and we should have more than enough to fund this.

I would avoid cutting anything health care related, we don’t need to make that ****show worse.
Sorry, but this drives me nuts. Do you mean tax "loopholes" like being allowed to carry-forward losses not deductible in the year the loss was taken? That's by far the largest "loophole" Amazon for sure and probably Facebook have used to avoid taxes paying taxes the last few years when they finally started making profits.

Let's put it this way in a very simple example. You start a company. The first few year you not only don't make money you have a NOL (Net Operating Loss) of $1,000,000 dollars. You have no net income so you pay no tax, plus you spent $1,000,000 more than you our revenue, thus you had a NOL carry-forward. Since you can normally deduct a NOL from your Gross income, tax law allows you to "carry forward" that loss. The second year you have a profit for that year (income minus expenses) of $1,000,000. The carry-forward NOL is deducted and you owe no taxes on that 2nd year's income. That makes a lovely socialist headline that the greedy bastard eodhorn's company made a "Million Dollar Profit and Paid no Income Tax!!". Is that a fair representation, or a distortion?

Now I oversimplified that regarding current law, since politicians didn't want to see those headlines I mentioned above. Now the headlines would read "eod'horn's Company Only Paid x dollars in Taxes on y dollars in Income this Year!!!"The law changed effective Jan 1, 2018 that you can carry forward losses indefinitely (used to be 20 years) but you can only use them to offset 80% of your income in one year, So actually if you did this in 2018 and 2019 or after, you would only be able to deduct $800,000, in that second year and pay taxes on $200,000 in income in that second year, In the third year you'd have $200,00 in carry-forward NOL and if 80% of your income for that 3rd year was $200,000 or more you could use the rest of your carry forward loss.
I'm not picking on you, you're obviously one of my favorite posters, but you hit a sore point for me that stems from leftists purposefully distorting facts about business and taxes and fooling people who don't have much knowledge about business and taxes. And it's certainly understandable why they'd fall for the age-old "loophole" fallacy because that hasn't been a part of their life. You see what I mean?

You can also carry forward other deductions that for one reason or another, such as the 60% of AGI limit of deductible charitable donations, you couldn't deduct in one year. Also if you have excess Longterm Capital losses you can carry those forward (short term losses are a little different, but I'm making this far more complicated than you want to know already. Sorry.
 

JG

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Sorry, but this drives me nuts. Do you mean tax "loopholes" like being allowed to carry-forward losses not deductible in the year the loss was taken? That's by far the largest "loophole" Amazon for sure and probably Facebook have used to avoid taxes paying taxes the last few years when they finally started making profits.

Let's put it this way in a very simple example. You start a company. The first few year you not only don't make money you have a NOL (Net Operating Loss) of $1,000,000 dollars. You have no net income so you pay no tax, plus you spent $1,000,000 more than you our revenue, thus you had a NOL carry-forward. Since you can normally deduct a NOL from your Gross income, tax law allows you to "carry forward" that loss. The second year you have a profit for that year (income minus expenses) of $1,000,000. The carry-forward NOL is deducted and you owe no taxes on that 2nd year's income. That makes a lovely socialist headline that the greedy bastard eodhorn's company made a "Million Dollar Profit and Paid no Income Tax!!". Is that a fair representation, or a distortion?

Now I oversimplified that regarding current law, since politicians didn't want to see those headlines I mentioned above. Now the headlines would read "eod'horn's Company Only Paid x dollars in Taxes on y dollars in Income this Year!!!"The law changed effective Jan 1, 2018 that you can carry forward losses indefinitely (used to be 20 years) but you can only use them to offset 80% of your income in one year, So actually if you did this in 2018 and 2019 or after, you would only be able to deduct $800,000, in that second year and pay taxes on $200,000 in income in that second year, In the third year you'd have $200,00 in carry-forward NOL and if 80% of your income for that 3rd year was $200,000 or more you could use the rest of your carry forward loss.
I'm not picking on you, you're obviously one of my favorite posters, but you hit a sore point for me that stems from leftists purposefully distorting facts about business and taxes and fooling people who don't have much knowledge about business and taxes. And it's certainly understandable why they'd fall for the age-old "loophole" fallacy because that hasn't been a part of their life. You see what I mean?

You can also carry forward other deductions that for one reason or another, such as the 60% of AGI limit of deductible charitable donations, you couldn't deduct in one year. Also if you have excess Longterm Capital losses you can carry those forward (short term losses are a little different, but I'm making this far more complicated than you want to know already. Sorry.
I am not some “leftist” that does not understand how tax laws work. I have owned a company for 20 years… I have an MBA… And I have paid a hell of a lot of taxes.

I am not here criticizing Trump for avoiding taxes. Had I the assets and flexibility he had to avoid paying them, I would as well. My criticism of Trump would be more in him bragging about what a great businessman he is, when in reality he is best at selling his own name. And the reason I would like to see his taxes is that I would like to know who he is beholden to.

What I mean by a shell game is that with a good accountant and asset flexibility, you could move assets around, put depreciation on one bottom line one year and another the next, arrange your losses to overcome income in another, and minimize your tax liability.

I don’t say that as some criticism… I would do it too if I had the flexibility.
 

houstonhorn

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Jon Stewart could also start a GO Fund Me, and easily raise millions of dollars to support these people in the time it took him to show to capital hill and bitch about it. I find it somewhat disingenuous to complain about funding shortfalls when his other political positions lead to shortfalls elsewhere.

Take care of vets and 1st responders before anything else.
 

acreativeusername

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Jon Stewart could also start a GO Fund Me, and easily raise millions of dollars to support these people in the time it took him to show to capital hill and bitch about it. I find it somewhat disingenuous to complain about funding shortfalls when his other political positions lead to shortfalls elsewhere.

Take care of vets and 1st responders before anything else.
Only this board could find something wrong with this. Hahaha dear Lord
 

mcb0703!

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Jon Stewart could also start a GO Fund Me, and easily raise millions of dollars to support these people in the time it took him to show to capital hill and bitch about it. I find it somewhat disingenuous to complain about funding shortfalls when his other political positions lead to shortfalls elsewhere.

Take care of vets and 1st responders before anything else.
The vets & first responders are being take care of; significantly.
 
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houstonhorn

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The vets & first responders are being take care of; significantly.
Yes I know. It's why Jon Stewart showing up to grandstand, look at me, is contemptible when he likely favors policies that hurt millions of other Americans.
 

mcb0703!

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Jon Stewart is self serving piece of ****. That he finally gives a **** about a few fellow Americans doesn't change this observation.
Have you donated time & money to help wounded veterans with their medical bills, or to help remodel their homes if veterans may be paralyzed from active duty, or help in any way whatsoever with the annual Warrior Games (wounded veterans Olympics)?

Jon Stewart has; & he does so on a regular basis. If that's the definition of a self-serving piece of ****, then I guess I'm now a self-serving piece of **** as well
 

houstonhorn

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Have you donated time & money to help wounded veterans with their medical bills, or to help remodel their homes if veterans may be paralyzed from active duty, or help in any way whatsoever with the annual Warrior Games (wounded veterans Olympics)?

Jon Stewart has; & he does so on a regular basis. If that's the definition of a self-serving piece of ****, then I guess I'm now a self-serving piece of **** as well
Yes I have asshole. I also will routinely buy a guy in uniform's dinner when I'm out and about. I also don't go bragging about it on social media.
 

mcb0703!

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Yes I have asshole. I also will routinely buy a guy in uniform's dinner when I'm out and about. I also don't go bragging about it on social media.
Really? You've helped veterans with their medical bills, or remodel their homes, or with the Warrior Games? Please provide details of these examples...
 

mcb0703!

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I give monthly to the Wounded Warriors project.
Interesting. That wasn't the question posed to you, but good for you for that donation, although, it's far far less than the work & money Jon Stewart gives veterans.

Stewart will be hosting & helping the Warrior Games in Tampa again this year; will you be there? If so, how will you be helping?

 

acreativeusername

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Yes I have asshole. I also will routinely buy a guy in uniform's dinner when I'm out and about. I also don't go bragging about it on social media.
Well, you did just brag about it

And Stewart didn’t post the video. He just spoke, and a news organization covered it

You look so pathetic and spiteful right now. If you can’t applaud a Democrat for doing an obviously good thing, then you need actual help
 

houstonhorn

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Interesting. That wasn't the question posed to you, but good for you for that donation, although, it's far far less than the work & money Jon Stewart gives veterans.

Stewart will be hosting & helping the Warrior Games in Tampa again this year; will you be there? If so, how will you be helping?

Nope, I have to work. I'm sure it will be a great time. I'm glad Jon Stewart is able to share more of his resources compared to me, he's made a lot more money being a self serving asshole than I have.
 

houstonhorn

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Well, you did just brag about it

And Stewart didn’t post the video. He just spoke, and a news organization covered it

You look so pathetic and spiteful right now. If you can’t applaud a Democrat for doing an obviously good thing, then you need actual help
I didn't brag about it, I was asked a question and I answered it. I guess I could lie, but that serves no purpose. I don't like Jon Stewart, I think he's a contemptible asshole, that he's not completely useless is good for veterans and 1st responders.
 

mcb0703!

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Jon Stewart could also start a GO Fund Me, and easily raise millions of dollars to support these people in the time it took him to show to capital hill and bitch about it. I find it somewhat disingenuous to complain about funding shortfalls when his other political positions lead to shortfalls elsewhere.

Take care of vets and 1st responders before anything else.
Jon Stewart is self serving piece of ****. That he finally gives a **** about a few fellow Americans doesn't change this observation.
Yes I know. It's why Jon Stewart showing up to grandstand, look at me, is contemptible when he likely favors policies that hurt millions of other Americans.
I didn't brag about it, I was asked a question and I answered it. I guess I could lie, but that serves no purpose. I don't like Jon Stewart, I think he's a contemptible asshole, that he's not completely useless is good for veterans and 1st responders.
Lol. From start to finish; just speaks for itself. Excuse me, I need to go laugh at you a little while longer
 

eodhorn

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Sorry, but this drives me nuts. Do you mean tax "loopholes" like being allowed to carry-forward losses not deductible in the year the loss was taken? That's by far the largest "loophole" Amazon for sure and probably Facebook have used to avoid taxes paying taxes the last few years when they finally started making profits.

Let's put it this way in a very simple example. You start a company. The first few year you not only don't make money you have a NOL (Net Operating Loss) of $1,000,000 dollars. You have no net income so you pay no tax, plus you spent $1,000,000 more than you our revenue, thus you had a NOL carry-forward. Since you can normally deduct a NOL from your Gross income, tax law allows you to "carry forward" that loss. The second year you have a profit for that year (income minus expenses) of $1,000,000. The carry-forward NOL is deducted and you owe no taxes on that 2nd year's income. That makes a lovely socialist headline that the greedy bastard eodhorn's company made a "Million Dollar Profit and Paid no Income Tax!!". Is that a fair representation, or a distortion?

Now I oversimplified that regarding current law, since politicians didn't want to see those headlines I mentioned above. Now the headlines would read "eod'horn's Company Only Paid x dollars in Taxes on y dollars in Income this Year!!!"The law changed effective Jan 1, 2018 that you can carry forward losses indefinitely (used to be 20 years) but you can only use them to offset 80% of your income in one year, So actually if you did this in 2018 and 2019 or after, you would only be able to deduct $800,000, in that second year and pay taxes on $200,000 in income in that second year, In the third year you'd have $200,00 in carry-forward NOL and if 80% of your income for that 3rd year was $200,000 or more you could use the rest of your carry forward loss.
I'm not picking on you, you're obviously one of my favorite posters, but you hit a sore point for me that stems from leftists purposefully distorting facts about business and taxes and fooling people who don't have much knowledge about business and taxes. And it's certainly understandable why they'd fall for the age-old "loophole" fallacy because that hasn't been a part of their life. You see what I mean?

You can also carry forward other deductions that for one reason or another, such as the 60% of AGI limit of deductible charitable donations, you couldn't deduct in one year. Also if you have excess Longterm Capital losses you can carry those forward (short term losses are a little different, but I'm making this far more complicated than you want to know already. Sorry.
While I am no tax guru I am glad you explained that to me. But is Amazon and Apple even close to those early years making up for losses? I haven’t looked . Seems like they have been making billions for years, and I don’t knock them. I am definitely not anti-rich, but if a company like Amazon paid almost nothing in taxes there should be some loop holes closed. Not demonizing anyone for using them, but also completely okay with closing them. If I am wrong I am all for being edumacated.
 
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Robert STRONG

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Jon Stewart could also start a GO Fund Me, and easily raise millions of dollars to support these people in the time it took him to show to capital hill and bitch about it. I find it somewhat disingenuous to complain about funding shortfalls when his other political positions lead to shortfalls elsewhere.

Take care of vets and 1st responders before anything else.
This is ludicrous. It's up to celebrities to start Go Fund Me's to help 9/11 responders instead of ****ing congress?!?
 

The_Major

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While I am no tax guru I am glad you explained that to me. But is Amazon and Apple even close to those early years making up for losses? I haven’t looked . Seems like they have been making billions for years, and I don’t knock them. I am definitely not anti-rich, but if a company like Amazon paid almost nothing in taxes there should be some loop holes closed. Not demonizing anyone for using them, but also completely okay with closing them. If I am wrong I am all for being edumacated.
I believe carry forward is 20 years. I agree that's too long.
 
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padrehorn11

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I believe carry forward is 20 years. I agree that's too long.
That was changed to indefinitely as of 1/1/18. However, they can no longer be carried back (by amending prvious years) andcarry-forwards can only be used to write-off 80% of taxable income. Previously it was 100%. 20 years reallly isn't all that long. without that provision, I don't imagine Uber and Lyft will be around then, since it may well take them many years (if ever. according to their IPO filings) to start earning profits. But since AOC likes Uber so much, I imagine she'll craft a 'loophole'just for them. :)

You are correct @eodhorn about Amazon, it turns out that Amazon in recent years has exhausted its carry-forwards, the write offs now are mainly tax credits for investement in new equipment and infrastructure, and for paying many high level employees with stock. I don't call those 'loopholes', I call them good tax policy that allowed Amazon to grow and do what it does even better. And I absolutely love Amazon, both as a customer and an investor.(Or greedy Capitalist Pig if one is a Millenial Marxist.)

Now let's look at a piece of the tax code that some might call a 'loophole' that I used last year, and it involved Amazon stock. IN 2018, I donated around $30,000 worth of Amazon stock to tax qualified charities. The stock had a Long-term Capital Gain basis of around $15,000 (Amazon had done very well from mid 2016 to midmid 2018). I had held the stock between between two years an 18 months, roughly, there were a number of tranches.

So if I had sold the stock first and donated the proceeds, the gain would have been taxed aas an LTGC at 20% plus 3.8% Net Investment Tax, or 23.8% of $15,000 = $3,570. So I would have had a net of $26,430 to donate to charity, after paying Tio Samuel the $3,570. Remeber my original cost was about $15,000. So I had $11,430 more to donate than I would have if I had just left t$15,000 under my mattress for that time period.

But I donated the stock and since it was all held for over a year, I could take a deduction from my taxes of $30,000. Since my ordinary income marginal bracket was the max of 37%, that saved me $11,100 in taxes. Accordiding to some though, I cheated the government of that money! SBut I prefer to look at it like I was able to donate $30,000 to charity with an original investmet cost of $15,000, and if you subtract the tax savings on other income, effectively it only cost me $15,000- $11,100 or $3,900 to make a donation of $30,000. Instead of the above case where it would have cost me $15,000 to make a donation of $26,430.

Now, if, but only if, you are going to make a charitable deduction, this is a real winner on a stock with a lot of appreciation. But note, I didn't have to donate anything to charity, and I could have pocketed the $26,430 (fter LTGC and NIT) of which $11,430 was a net after tax gain.

So I could have made an after tax gain of $11,430, or I could have spent a net $3,900 over a year prior and made a donation of $30,000. I ended up with less money still than I had to start with, or could have kept, but my charities made out very well. Note I ignored the Net Present Value since it was such short time period (but necessarily over one year). This only works well if you have a stock that aprreciates a great deal in a not too much more than a few years. I actually had another stock going to be bought out at more than twice the average it had cost me over a period of one to three years (again several tranches)..so I donated it ( about $14,000) to charity before I would have had to sell it to the purchasing company.

Anyway, I guess some people would call that a 'loophole'. Of course somepeople would even call the first case a loophole since becasue it was a LTGC if had sold it, my tax rate of the gain would have only been 23.8% as opposed to 37% What do you think?
 
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eodhorn

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That was changed to indefinitely as of 1/1/18. However, they can no longer be carried back (by amending prvious years) andcarry-forwards can only be used to write-off 80% of taxable income. Previously it was 100%. 20 years reallly isn't all that long. without that provision, I don't imagine Uber and Lyft will be around then, since it may well take them many years (if ever. according to their IPO filings) to start earning profits. But since AOC likes Uber so much, I imagine she'll craft a 'loophole'just for them. :)

You are correct @eodhorn about Amazon, it turns out that Amazon in recent years has exhausted its carry-forwards, the write offs now are mainly tax credits for investement in new equipment and infrastructure, and for paying many high level employees with stock. I don't call those 'loopholes', I call them good tax policy that allowed Amazon to grow and do what it does even better. And I absolutely love Amazon, both as a customer and an investor.(Or greedy Capitalist Pig if one is a Millenial Marxist.)

Now let's look at a piece of the tax code that some might call a 'loophole' that I used last year, and it involved Amazon stock. IN 2018, I donated around $30,000 worth of Amazon stock to tax qualified charities. The stock had a Long-term Capital Gain basis of around $15,000 (Amazon had done very well from mid 2016 to midmid 2018). I had held the stock between between two years an 18 months, roughly, there were a number of tranches.

So if I had sold the stock first and donated the proceeds, the gain would have been taxed aas an LTGC at 20% plus 3.8% Net Investment Tax, or 23.8% of $15,000 = $3,570. So I would have had a net of $26,430 to donate to charity, after paying Tio Samuel the $3,570. Remeber my original cost was about $15,000. So I had $11,430 more to donate than I would have if I had just left t$15,000 under my mattress for that time period.

But I donated the stock and since it was all held for over a year, I could take a deduction from my taxes of $30,000. Since my ordinary income marginal bracket was the max of 37%, that saved me $11,100 in taxes. Accordiding to some though, I cheated the government of that money! SBut I prefer to look at it like I was able to donate $30,000 to charity with an original investmet cost of $15,000, and if you subtract the tax savings on other income, effectively it only cost me $15,000- $11,100 or $3,900 to make a donation of $30,000. Instead of the above case where it would have cost me $15,000 to make a donation of $26,430.

Now, if, but only if, you are going to make a charitable deduction, this is a real winner on a stock with a lot of appreciation. But note, I didn't have to donate anything to charity, and I could have pocketed the $26,430 (fter LTGC and NIT) of which $11,430 was a net after tax gain.

So I could have made an after tax gain of $11,430, or I could have spent a net $3,900 over a year prior and made a donation of $30,000. I ended up with less money still than I had to start with, or could have kept, but my charities made out very well. Note I ignored the Net Present Value since it was such short time period (but necessarily over one year). This only works well if you have a stock that aprreciates a great deal in a not too much more than a few years. I actually had another stock going to be bought out at more than twice the average it had cost me over a period of one to three years (again several tranches)..so I donated it ( about $14,000) to charity before I would have had to sell it to the purchasing company.

Anyway, I guess some people would call that a 'loophole'. Of course somepeople would even call the first case a loophole since becasue it was a LTGC if had sold it, my tax rate of the gain would have only been 23.8% as opposed to 37% What do you think?
Bud, I am going to be honest, hard to even follow because I am ignorant with regards to taxes, never had that kind of money, and am really bad at math. I was bad at math before being blown up 6 times. It’s probably why I am a fan of some form of flat tax that hits everyone equally. Unless you make enough money to hire tax people, or are smart enough to understand and take advantage of the current system, you kinda get screwed. Remember I am a fairly staunch conservative, but the idea that these massively wealthy companies get away with paying almost no taxes befuddles me. It’s maybe the only liberal thought that creeps in my head. I don’t want raised taxes, I don’t want new taxes, but I want multi billion dollar companies to pay more in taxes than small businesses that gross around a million a year.
 
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padrehorn11

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Bud, I am going to be honest, hard to even follow because I am ignorant with regards to taxes, never had that kind of money, and am really bad at math. I was bad at math before being blown up 6 times. It’s probably why I am a fan of some form of flat tax that hits everyone equally. Unless you make enough money to hire tax people, or are smart enough to understand and take advantage of the current system, you kinda get screwed. Remember I am a fairly staunch conservative, but the idea that these massively wealthy companies get away with paying almost no taxes befuddles me. It’s maybe the only liberal thought that creeps in my head. I don’t want raised taxes, I don’t want new taxes, but I want multi billion dollar companies to pay more in taxes than small businesses that gross around a million a year.
OK, I realize it seems complicated, I admit, but disarming explosive devices without getting blown up seems really, really complicated to me. But hell, if I can understand it, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon...just putting in the time to work at understanding it...like any other endeavor.

You can skip to the last paragraph and get the summary, but I'll try to address this corporate tax thing with an example, (with a lot of caveats and details I'm not going into). Amazon had 2018 sales revenue of about $233 billion. That's a big company. After subtracting the cost of goods sold of about $140 billion, that left the company with about $93.7 billion in gross revenue, still a lot of revenue, but isn't the profit what we should tax? So they deducted their operating expenses of $52 billion(salaries being a major component of that--and the people that earned those salaries paid their income tax. I assume). They also spent about $29 billion on research and development (and that money spent was income on the other end, in part, on which taxes were paid) about $1.5 in interest expense (which was also someo other company's income and was taxed) leaving them with a profit of $11.2 billion. (I'll do the math for you on that, that's about a 4.7% 'profit margin', a little better than your average grocery store, I think.)

New you say, ok why didn't they pay a lot of income tax on that? Well, it does get a little tricky here, but essentially they did several tax-wise things to lower their 2018 tax bill. Some of it was just postponing when they will py some taxes through thngs like accelerated depreciation (I won't go into that--I'm trying to kep this simple). One thing any tax savvy company or person understands is that it's always better to postpone taxes, even though someday the bill comes due. They did also still have some loss carry-forwards. They also saved a lot of tax liability by paying out stock as partial compensation, and that wasnt included above in operating expenses as salary. But remember, the people who received that stock paid income tax on that. Anyway, they ended up with a tax bill before tax credits of about $1.2 billlion. Now this next part you may call a 'loophole', a lot of people do: one of the parts of the tax code to encourage more research and development is a tax credit for R&D which is a credit in addition to the deduction they took above. I personally think it's a good thing to encourage companies to innovate through the tax code, but some folks disagree, saying companies will do that anyway. Well we can discuss that, but bottom line, they had tax creditss which offest their tax liability, and actually were over $100 million in excess, so they got a tax refund. But would I rather have Amazon or Apple, or any other company spend that money on developing cool stuff I can buy in a few years (Lord willing) than having the government spend it on cow-fart inhibitors. Those small companies you refer too that gross a million a year could have the same zero tax liability if they spent a lot of money on growing the company, developing new produts, etc, instead of just business as usual and a profit margin twice what Amazon makes. It's not like Amazon did some arcane tricksy stuff, they just understood the tax code as it's written and figured out how to best use their net revenue for growing instead of paying it in taxes to the government.

Question: what do you think Amazon did with that income that didn't get taxed? Well, they'll spend it this year gowing the company. Since they don't pay dividends, that's all they can do with it. I mean, it's not like they hid it under their corporate mattress. But admittedly, by growing the comapny that will increase its value and make them even more massivley wealthy. Frankly, since I own a lot of Amazon stock still, I think that's a good thing.

So, that's about as simple as I can make it, and it all seems much easier for me to understand than how to defuse an explosive device without geting blown up. But we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Finally, admittedly Jeff Bezos is worth billions of dollars in Amazon stock. I'm cool with that, he built a hell of a great company that sells me stuff I need and want, at a reasonable price, and delivers it to my front door within two days. One of the things they spent a lot of that CAPEX (R&D) on was setting up to make one-day delivery the satandard instead of two-day. That's pretty cool, especially when you live in a relatively small city hundreds of miles from any major city. I'm also cool with the fact that before I gave away a lot of Amazon stock last year, and thestock price fell about 10% from it's high last fall to now, I had about as much of my net worth in Amazon stock as I did in my house. I still have more than half as much paper money in Amazon as my house is worth.

But bottom line, I'm an investor, it's what I do (other than following certain sports, reading and respnding on IT, enjoying my family and helping them, and the all important thing...making my dog Zorra's life everything she wants it to be.:cool: It's all part of our economic system we call (semi-)Free-Market Capitalism. And after evaluating the results over the history of mankind, I think iit's the best economic system mankind has yet found. Though the all Democrats running for President evidently prefer socialism of the Venzuelan model.

PS. I know a flat tax of the same rate on everyone sounds fair at first blush, but I really don't think you want to pay your taxes equally at the same tax rate I do. Unless you want to pay an effective overall rate of about 28% and a marginal rate of 37%.;)
 
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eodhorn

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OK, I realize it seems complicated, I admit, but disarming explosive devices without getting blown up seems really, really complicated to me.

You can skip to the last paragraph and get the KillfsNoes, but I'll try to address this corporate tax thing with an example, (with a lot of caveats and details I'm not going into). Amazon had 2018 sales revenue of about $233 billion. That's a big company. After subtracting the cost of goods sold of about $140 billion, that left the company with about $93.7 billion in gross revenue, still a lot of revenue, but isn't the profit what we should tax? So they deducted their operating expenses of $52 billion(salaries being a major component of that--and the people that earned those salaries paid their income tax. I assume). They also spent about $29 billion on research and development (and that money spent was income on the other end, in part, on which taxes were paid) about $1.5 in interest expense (which was also someo other company's income and was taxed) leaving them wi a profit of $11.2 billion. (I'll do the math for you on that, that's about a 4.7% 'profit margin', a little better than your average grocery store, I think.)

New you say, ok why didn't they pay a lot of income tax on that? Well, it does get a little tricky here, but essentially they did several tax-wise things to lower their 2018 tax bill. ISome of it was just postponing when they will py some taxes through thngs like accelerated depreciation (I won't go into that--I'm trying to kep this simple). One thing any tax savvy company or person understands is that it's always better to postpone taxes, even though someday the bill comes due. They did also still have some loss carry-forwards. They also saved a lot of tax liability by paying out stock as partial compensation, and that wasnt included above in operating expenses as salary. But remember, the people who received that stock paid income tax on that. Anyway, they ended up with a tax bill before tax credits of about $1.2 billlion. Now this next part you may call a 'loophole', a lot of people do: one of the parts of the tax code to encourage more research and development is a tax credit for R&D which is a credit in addition to the deduction they took above. I personally think it's a good thing to encourage companies to innovate through the tax code, but some folks disagree, saying companies will do that anyway. Well we can discuss that, but bottom line, they had tax creditss which offest their tax liability, and actually were over $100 million in excess, so they got a tax refund. But would I rather have Amazon or Apple, or any other comapnay spend that money on developing cool stuff I can buy in a few years (Lord willing) than having the government spend it on cow-fart inhibitors.

Question: what do you think Amazon did with that income that didn't get taxed? Well, they'll spend it this year gowing the company. Since they don't pay dividends, that's all they can do with it. I mean, it's not like they hid it under their corporate mattress. But admittedly, by growing the comapny that will increase its value and make them even more massivley wealthy. Frankly, since I own a lot of Amazon stock still, I think that's a good thing.

So, that's about as simple as I can make it, and it all seems much easier for me to understand than how to defuse an explosive device without geting blown up. But we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

Finally, admittedly Jeff Bezos is worth billions of dollars in Amazon stock. I'm cool with that, he built a hell of a great company that sells me stuff I need and want, at a reasonable price, and delivers it to my front door within ta day or two (one of the things they spent a lot of CAPEX on was setting up to make one-day delivery the satandard instead of two day. That's pretty cool, especially when you live in a relatively small city hundreds of miles from any major city. I'm also cool with the fact that before I gave away a lot of Amazon stock last year, and thestock price fell about 10% from it's high last fall to now, I had about as much of my net worth in Amazon stock as I did in my house. I still have more than half as much paper money in Amazon as my house is worth.

But bottom line, I'm an investor, it's what I do (other than following certain sports, reading and respnding on IT, enjoying my family and helping them, and the all important thing...making my dog Zorra's life everything she wants it to be.:cool: It's all part of our eceonomic system Capitalism, which after evaluating the results over the history of mankind, I think is the best economic system we've found. Though the all Democrats running for President evidently perfer socialism of the Venzuelan model.
Agree with everything said, and thanks for the explanation. On the question what would I rather the government do with that tax revenue? Well remember I am a conservative. So this 9/11 bill funding for starters. I believe massive entitlement reform is needed and could be used for more important funding needs, and probably have enough left over to help reduce cow farts. This socialist idea of creating a welfare state both pisses me off and scares the **** out of me simultaneously. So hypothetically I could think of good uses for that money, but agree that as it sits now our government would waste it immediately on some useless ****.
 

padrehorn11

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Agree with everything said, and thanks for the explanation. On the question what would I rather the government do with that tax revenue? Well remember I am a conservative. So this 9/11 bill funding for starters. I believe massive entitlement reform is needed and could be used for more important funding needs, and probably have enough left over to help reduce cow farts. This socialist idea of creating a welfare state both pisses me off and scares the **** out of me simultaneously. So hypothetically I could think of good uses for that money, but agree that as it sits now our government would waste it immediately on some useless ****.
I think you're a great guy, but if it wasn't "how it sits now", and the government didn't waste so much, or spend it on a welfare state I don't know if I want you deciding how to spend all the tax you think is 'fair' that you take from Amazon et al. I think that would be a real absolute monarchy with you as king, or if you would rather, a dicatorship with you in charge instead of Kim Jong-un. I'm not trying to be snotty, but that's kind of how what you wrote sounds to me. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way though.
 

padrehorn11

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Agree with everything said, and thanks for the explanation. On the question what would I rather the government do with that tax revenue? Well remember I am a conservative. So this 9/11 bill funding for starters. I believe massive entitlement reform is needed and could be used for more important funding needs, and probably have enough left over to help reduce cow farts. This socialist idea of creating a welfare state both pisses me off and scares the **** out of me simultaneously. So hypothetically I could think of good uses for that money, but agree that as it sits now our government would waste it immediately on some useless ****.
Also, I kind of think Amazon is pretty good at spending money to make our lives better. That's actually the best way for a company to really succeed, if you think about it.

I told someone no long ago when Trump was bitching about Amazon and the stock dropped. If I look at who I think is smarter and overall has imprived my life more in the past...Jeff Bezos or Donald Trump? I come up on the side of Bezos.

Although if I really had the choice, and I had to choose a President between Trump, Bezos, or any of the Democrats running, I'd choose my dog Zorra.
 
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eodhorn

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I think you're a great guy, but if it wasn't "how it sits now", and the government didn't waste so much, or spend it on a welfare state I don't know if I want you deciding how to spend all the tax you think is 'fair' that you take from Amazon et al. I think that would be a real absolute monarchy with you as king, or if you would rather, a dicatorship with you in charge instead of Kim Jong-un. I'm not trying to be snotty, but that's kind of how what you wrote sounds to me. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way though.
Oh probably wouldn’t want me choosing. I am not empathetic enough to be choosing where tax dollars go. Most social programs would be cut or **** canned altogether. I would definitely needs a checks and balances system.
 
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