Giving Up Darwin

HornsWin

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Not meant to be offensive though I have a habit of writing that way. So, it doesn't mean anything really. Hornswin jumped in too. Battle lines will start to get drawn and that wasn't what I meant for this to become.
I'm largely sitting this one out. I'm mostly here just to watch Duke behave like a 4-year old who's been told he can't have ice cream for dinner.
 

40A

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Not meant to be offensive though I have a habit of writing that way. So, it doesn't mean anything really. Hornswin jumped in too. Battle lines will start to get drawn and that wasn't what I meant for this to become.
Nah, Horns and I had a private convo and I think we are at a good place - just disagree on what's what. I shouldn't have gotten so uppity and I'd venture to say he would agree.
 

40A

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That is over-simplifying, but yes, the Catholic Church does not see evolution as being in opposition to the Christian God, so long as it is believed that God is behind it all.
That's quite an oversimplification to me, but I get why they made that decision.
 

40A

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I'm largely sitting this one out. I'm mostly here just to watch Duke behave like a 4-year old who's been told he can't have ice cream for dinner.
I almost posted something about how I wasn't going to take an angry-at-God-atheist's opinion seriously, but then I remembered that Duke is always that way so I didn't say anything.
 

HornsWin

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I almost posted something about how I wasn't going to take an angry-at-God-atheist's opinion seriously, but then I remembered that Duke is always that way so I didn't say anything.
It used to bother me, but now it's just white noise.
 
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Duke Silver

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I agree with the first part, but kindly disagree with the second part.

Edit: sorry, I thought this would include that part where you point out that Duke's religious opinions are not to be seriously considered. That's the part I offer you a high five for.
Oh no! My religious opinions shouldn’t be taken seriously? That hurts. I know so much about Corinthians. More than you and 40A. So much in fact we should get in a interminable internecine argument about it and then both claim to be more sophisticated than the other. Y’all are pathetic and can’t face reality.
 

bHero

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What the **** is “the answer” to the Cambrian explosion? Just more god in the gaps nonsense.
To be fair, that's also the scientists answer. Science of the gaps is the other sides argument. Essentially they say, could be ocean vents or could be some atmospheric anomaly creating enormous evolutionary pressure, or maybe we'll just find the missing parts later.

In the end, neither side has a firm grasp of what happened about 540 million years ago, currently.
 
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Duke Silver

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I almost posted something about how I wasn't going to take an angry-at-God-atheist's opinion seriously, but then I remembered that Duke is always that way so I didn't say anything.
I’m not angry at “god.”
 

bHero

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Hour long video? Damn I’ll have to watch it tonight on 2x speed

Is he “giving up Darwin” as in saying evolution doesn’t happen, or that God had a hand in it? If it’s the latter, that’s basically just saying whether you’re religious or not, right? Seems like the ideas kinda coexist if evolution still happens in both scenarios. You’re just arguing the start was different, but the process becomes the same or similar
It's a bit of a misnomer to over-hype the book/video. Scientists don't believe in the Darwinian model of evolution anymore. That's a lot of new hotness out there when it comes to evolutionary theory.
 
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HornsWin

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Oh no! My religious opinions shouldn’t be taken seriously? That hurts. I know so much about Corinthians. More than you and 40A. So much in fact we should get in a interminable internecine argument about it and then both claim to be more sophisticated than the other. Y’all are pathetic and can’t face reality.
Ok, Donald Trump.
 
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Duke Silver

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To be fair, that's also the scientists answer. Science of the gaps is the other sides argument. Essentially they say, could be ocean vents or could be some atmospheric anomaly creating enormous evolutionary pressure, or maybe we'll just find the missing parts later.

In the end, neither side has a firm grasp of what happened about 540 million years ago, currently.
No that is not the same. Scientists are fine with not knowing all the mechanisms and continue to observe and look for evidence. Religious people say the inquiry is over and god is the answer.
 
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HornsWin

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No that is not the same. Scientists are fine with not knowing all the mechanisms and continue to observe and look for evidence. Religious people say the inquiry is over and god is the answer.
Why do you think religious people continue to study their respective religions?
 
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acreativeusername

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It's a bit of a misnomer to over-hype the book/video. Scientists don't believe in the Darwinian model of evolution anymore. That's a lot of new hotness out there when it comes to evolutionary theory.
I bet, we always get the oversimplified version anyway

I’m not understanding how they’re mutually exclusive but I’m not well versed religiously so I’m not informed enough to debate it
 

HornsWin

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I bet, we always get the oversimplified version anyway

I’m not understanding how they’re mutually exclusive but I’m not well versed religiously so I’m not informed enough to debate it
Just because you're not, in your own estimation, well-versed enough to debate it doesn't mean you can't. Do you even internet?
 

Duke Silver

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It's a bit of a misnomer to over-hype the book/video. Scientists don't believe in the Darwinian model of evolution anymore. That's a lot of new hotness out there when it comes to evolutionary theory.
A theory from 1859 has been tweaked? No way! Ptolemy would be shocked. These people are charlatans.
 

bHero

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No that is not the same. Scientists are fine with not knowing all the mechanisms and continue to observe and look for evidence. Religious people say the inquiry is over and god is the answer.
Negative sir. God is the answer doesn't mean the inquiry is over. No one is saying stop digging.
 

theelusiveshadow

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Some theory of evolution and theism, even Christian theism, can certainly co-exist. What probably can't coexist is a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 alongside evolutionary theory, but the former is not required in Judaism or Christianity.

That said, I do think there are real issues in Darwinian evolution that are not talked about in the typical textbook, and some of these problems are being brought up in the scientific literature by geneticists and microbiologists (though I'm not saying that they're throwing out evolution as a concept wholesale). There seem to be more and more people that are concluding that the Neo-Darwinian formula of "random mutation + natural selection" doesn't have enough explanatory power to cover the history of life as we know it. And I think it is healthy to have these discussions; Darwinism, unfortunately, has become something like dogma at the university, and they shouldn't be treating any theory like that.
 

bHero

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I bet, we always get the oversimplified version anyway

I’m not understanding how they’re mutually exclusive but I’m not well versed religiously so I’m not informed enough to debate it
Most people who believe in creation theory don't allow for the timeframe necessary for "classical" marco-evolutionary processes to operate. Most of the model is challenged on the grounds that the generations-required timeframes won't work.

Intelligent design people tend to operate on a spectrum, with some who think it's 100% true, to others who think it's wholly inaccurate.
Macro-evolution being speciation, micro evolution being small stuff like different colored hair.
 
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40A

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Oh no! My religious opinions shouldn’t be taken seriously? That hurts. I know so much about Corinthians. More than you and 40A. So much in fact we should get in a interminable internecine argument about it and then both claim to be more sophisticated than the other. Y’all are pathetic and can’t face reality.
Easy brodie I'm not coming at you.
 

theelusiveshadow

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So god is mutable?
I'm... genuinely puzzled by this response. Whether or not God is mutable has nothing to do with inquiry. Even if God is strongly immutable (not all Christians agree with that, like me), that has really nothing to do with whether people have inquiry about the world or even God himself. Just seems to be a bizarre non sequitur.
 

bHero

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A theory from 1859 has been tweaked? No way! Ptolemy would be shocked. These people are charlatans.
That's what I thought was weird about the video. They were acting like this is new. It's not. It's marketing.

But Berlinski is a rarefied genius so I enjoy hearing him in the same sense that I like when Christopher Hitchens. Not many like them around anymore.

And Steven C Meyer is a heavyweight in his own right, another man I enjoy listening to because he understands the why? behind much of science and doesn't just regurgitate facts.
 
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Duke Silver

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Not at all.

My point is that just because God is behind the forces that operate it doesn't mean we don't explore those forces, and in fact I believe we're called to. I think it's all fascinating and we should uncover every iota of how our universe operates and interrelates.
God is completely irrelevant to this inquiry besides motivation for some individuals. So who cares?
 

bHero

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Because they’re arrogant and afraid.
Apologia
But in your hearts set Christ apart [as holy—acknowledging Him, giving Him first place in your lives] as Lord. Always be ready to give a [logical] defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope and confident assurance [elicited by faith] that is within you, yet [do it] with gentleness and respect.
 
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