Hatred from, and for Christians

bHero

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Following up on PDF's comment. I'm starting a new thread because the other one has been sufficiently derailed.

Cue:
Agreed. As you know, in several places in the New Testament, Jesus (and later Paul) told us to expect that we will be criticized, opposed, or attacked for our beliefs. See, e.g., John 15:18-19... and John 16:33...Unfortunately, however, too many Christians take this warning as an excuse to "hate" back, which is, of course, contrary to many other Scriptures, e.g., 1 Corinthians 16:13, 1 Peter 3:15-16, etc.

People do like to play armchair adjudicator and start pointing out others' flaws. Hell, I do it from time to time. I get others not being pleased with decisions, and taking issue with who is praised as a model for society, but that is no excuse for the hatred that gets blasted most of the time.

People acting like there is some line that cannot be uncrossed is amusing. I have a couple of theologians I like. I prefer the ones that keep it simple...Imagine this, or if you are an atheist, play along (and tune your sarcasm meter). Can the God of the Universe institute "salvation" and not take into account the enormity of some people's sins? Of course not. Would he have a salvation that could not possible by applied to a pedophile, for example? Or a murder, or an adulterer? Did God cut them out because he said I came here to redeem only those that were pretty much good, but just need a little bit of redemption because of smaller sins? Of course not.

Yet we get Christians saying and doing ignorant things, exactly out of this notion. So, the hate and intolerance breeds hate and intolerance. We are judged by the media based on the loudest and most appalling of our group. Not by the paragons, but the hypocrites. So now, were are in a society where it's okay to "hate" Christians. This isn't the only reason, but it's a big one.
 

TEXBTP

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I think it takes a great con to make one man hate another for no rational reason and do something against their interest. Making a man do something against his interest like suicide is more palatable to the mark when the directive comes from God.
 

kitcatjam

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bHero makes the main point:

Extremists get the most attention. Whether it be radical Dominionists or rabid atheist - both of whom want to dictate how everyone else lives.

So, if I am Joe Sixpack or Sally Housecoat, and all I am exposed to in terms of opposing ideologies is Westboro Baptist Church or a a militant atheist group - I am going to do a lot of lumping of others into those camps.

"Oh, you are a Christian? You must be a radical like Fred Phelps."

"Oh, you don't believe in God? You must want to oppress Christians."

That cycle - and it happens on EVERY issue in the USA right now - is destroying our national dialogue and our ability to work together.

How do we fix it? I don't know. The money generated by putting extremists on TV and on the Internet is crazy. I don't see FOX or CNN or any other media company (movies, Internet) giving up the cash.
 

40A

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Following up on PDF's comment. I'm starting a new thread because the other one has been sufficiently derailed.

Cue:



People do like to play armchair adjudicator and start pointing out others' flaws. Hell, I do it from time to time. I get others not being pleased with decisions, and taking issue with who is praised as a model for society, but that is no excuse for the hatred that gets blasted most of the time.

People acting like there is some line that cannot be uncrossed is amusing. I have a couple of theologians I like. I prefer the ones that keep it simple...Imagine this, or if you are an atheist, play along (and tune your sarcasm meter). Can the God of the Universe institute "salvation" and not take into account the enormity of some people's sins? Of course not. Would he have a salvation that could not possible by applied to a pedophile, for example? Or a murder, or an adulterer? Did God cut them out because he said I came here to redeem only those that were pretty much good, but just need a little bit of redemption because of smaller sins? Of course not.

Yet we get Christians saying and doing ignorant things, exactly out of this notion. So, the hate and intolerance breeds hate and intolerance. We are judged by the media based on the loudest and most appalling of our group. Not by the paragons, but the hypocrites. So now, were are in a society where it's okay to "hate" Christians. This isn't the only reason, but it's a big one.
+1
 

Duke Silver

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bHero makes the main point:

Extremists get the most attention. Whether it be radical Dominionists or rabid atheist - both of whom want to dictate how everyone else lives.

So, if I am Joe Sixpack or Sally Housecoat, and all I am exposed to in terms of opposing ideologies is Westboro Baptist Church or a a militant atheist group.
Where is this militant atheist group and how do I join? Do we get guns?
 

Shane2

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Where is this militant atheist group and how do I join? Do we get guns?
1. No guns.

2. Cannot join today. They were based in Russia, but this specific group disbanded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Militant_Atheists

The League of Militant Atheists[1] (Russian: Союз воинствующих безбожников Soyuz voinstvuyushchikh bezbozhnikov); Society of the Godless (Общество безбожников Obshchestvo bezbozhnikov); Union of the Godless (Союз безбожников Soyuz bezbozhnikov), was an atheistic and antireligious organization of workers and intelligentsia that developed in Soviet Russia under the influence of the ideological and cultural views and policies of the Soviet Communist Party from 1925 to 1947.[2] It consisted of Party members, members of the Komsomol youth movement, workers and military veterans.[3]

The League embraced workers, peasants, students, and intelligentsia. It had its first affiliates at factories, plants, collective farms (kolkhoz), and educational institutions. By the beginning of 1941, it had about 3.5 million members from 100 nationalities. It had about 96,000 offices across the country. Guided by Bolshevik principles of antireligious propaganda and party's orders with regards to religion, the League aimed at exterminating religion in all its manifestations and forming an anti-religious scientific mindset among the workers. It propagated atheism and scientific achievements, conducted 'individual work' (a method of sending atheist tutors to meet with individual believers to convince them of atheism, which could be followed up with public harassment if they failed to comply) with religious people, prepared propagandists and atheistic campaigners, published anti-religious scientific literature and periodicals, organized museums and exhibitions, conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and critics of religion. The League's slogan was "Struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism", which was meant to tie in their atheist views with economy, politics, and culture. One of the slogans adopted at the 2nd congress was "Struggle against religion is a struggle for the five-year plan!"[4] The League had international connections; it was part of the International of Proletarian Freethinkers and later of the Worldwide Freethinkers Union.

The League was a "nominally independent organization established by the Communist Party to promote atheism." It published newspapers, journals, and other materials that lampooned religion; it sponsored lectures and films; it organized demonstrations and parades; it set up antireligious museums; and it led a concerted effort telling Soviet citizens that religious beliefs and practices were "wrong" and "harmful", and that "good" citizens ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview.[5]​
 

Shane2

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bHero makes the main point:

Extremists get the most attention. Whether it be radical Dominionists or rabid atheist - both of whom want to dictate how everyone else lives.

So, if I am Joe Sixpack or Sally Housecoat, and all I am exposed to in terms of opposing ideologies is Westboro Baptist Church or a a militant atheist group - I am going to do a lot of lumping of others into those camps.

"Oh, you are a Christian? You must be a radical like Fred Phelps."

"Oh, you don't believe in God? You must want to oppress Christians."

That cycle - and it happens on EVERY issue in the USA right now - is destroying our national dialogue and our ability to work together.

How do we fix it? I don't know. The money generated by putting extremists on TV and on the Internet is crazy. I don't see FOX or CNN or any other media company (movies, Internet) giving up the cash.
This is why I avoid the national media, on both sides.

Unfortunately, we have declined so far that I'm not really sure it can be fixed.
 

PFD

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Um. It can be argued that having or not having a god or gods in your life makes no difference in good or bad things happening in one's life.
Hundreds of millions of 20th Century residents of the Soviet Union, China, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, et al., would disagree.
 
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40A

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Um. It can be argued that having or not having a god or gods in your life makes no difference in good or bad things happening in one's life.
It COULD be argued, but not very well.

Do you understand the rather large scope that the church plays in the role of charity in this world?
 

WeAreTexas

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I dont hate christians, most of my friends, being a conservative and being in finance, are christians, but I hate christianity and religion in general
 

btown1110

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So here's where the issue arises: the US as it is today has a big problem with saying that if you don't support something then you must hate it. Case in point, homosexuality. It's wrong. Lusting after anyone that's not your wife/husband is wrong. Do I still lust after attractive women? Ya and because of that I've sinned. So it's wrong for an un-married person to lust after anyone, male or female. When does it become okay? In marriage. So then why can't gay people get married? Because Scripture is ADAMANT that marriage is between one man and one woman. So that would make homosexual marriage a perversion of Scripture and therefore I don't support gay marriage.

I grew up in a relatively conservative PCUSA church (think moderate on the political scale as PCUSA is very "progressive"). There's a lot of politics in that church and they've been magnified as the PCUSA changed their doctrine on some topics that are in direct violation of Scripture. It was a mess of a process, staff left, members left, financial lost, just all around bad. It's finally getting better as they've joined a denomination that's much more in line with the church's doctrine but the politics of it made it a huge pain and to the leftist media, they probably looked like the bad guys.

The church I attend in Austin (Austin Stone) is relatively new but is one of the most influential churches in the US as they took concept that was used in the Book of Acts in the Bible and put it into practice. While it was started in England in the 90's, the church here was one of the first churches in the US to do it and it's becoming an increasingly popular part of churches around the world.

The church here doesn't have politics. It's not a part of a denomination. The pastors do sermons based on the Scripture, and Scripture alone. It's organized religion in that anywhere from 5000-7000 people show up on Sundays but other than that, it's all about loving people.

But the problem occurs when people think that "Christians" are gay bashers, morally superior, etc. Many "Christians" are that. But Christ followers (a bit cliche) follow the teachings of Jesus and those say that we are to love everyone.


Do I hate gay people? No, I honestly don't hate anyone but I don't support sex or lust before marriage. The Bible is clear about living in sin and the dangers of doing so. But at the same time, as bHero said in the OP, salvation is for all. If people would look first at their own sin and then at their brother or sister's, I'm guessing that they'd come to the conclusion that both have sinned and are deserving of death as they've wronged the King of the Universe. But, Praise God, that Jesus took our place and paid that price and his grace and love is for all, gay or straight.




So here's my opinion after that long-winded lead up: I don't support gay marriage and I never will. I think homosexuality is inherently wrong but as is premarital sex for anyone. Homosexual couples can have something for tax purposes like a civil union but don't put the word "marriage" with it because that's a perversion of what marriage truly is (a spiritual bond but that's another conversation). That said, I love my friends who have had sex before marriage and I don't look down on others because of their sin because I've got more than enough of my own. I'm not going to hate someone because of their sexual preference but that doesn't mean that I have to support their actions either. The media would characterize me as a bigot who hates gays because of the "for us or against us" mentality, but that's not the case at all. The phrase "hate the sin but love the sinner" is old and tired but it actually applies here. Now if we could just get the people like Westboro Baptist to apply the same ideology, then we'd be in a better place. But that won't happen and Christians will continue to be viewed as radicals like those from WBC because we don't agree with everyone else.



Side Note: I believe that we are being persecuted. It's incredibly light compared to our brothers in places like Indonesia but the Bible is clear that we are going to persecuted for the advancement of the Gospel.



God bless yall!
Hook 'em!
Go Team USA, beat the Ruskies!
 
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Duke Silver

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Lusting after anyone that's not your wife/husband is wrong. Do I still lust after attractive women? Ya and because of that I've sinned. So it's wrong for an un-married person to lust after anyone, male or female. When does it become okay? In marriage. So then why can't gay people get married? Because Scripture is ADAMANT that marriage is between one man and one woman. So that would make homosexual marriage a perversion of Scripture and therefore I don't support gay marriage.
I actually feel sorry for a lot of you Xians. You believe in something so strongly that is so patently wrong.
 

seadaddy

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Understand what your saying, Duke. But answer me one question: who created the world or, in the alternative, how did the world begin?
 

PFD

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So here's where the issue arises: the US as it is today has a big problem with saying that if you don't support something then you must hate it. Case in point, homosexuality. It's wrong. Lusting after anyone that's not your wife/husband is wrong. Do I still lust after attractive women? Ya and because of that I've sinned. So it's wrong for an un-married person to lust after anyone, male or female. When does it become okay? In marriage. So then why can't gay people get married? Because Scripture is ADAMANT that marriage is between one man and one woman. So that would make homosexual marriage a perversion of Scripture and therefore I don't support gay marriage.

...

But the problem occurs when people think that "Christians" are gay bashers, morally superior, etc. Many "Christians" are that. But Christ followers (a bit cliche) follow the teachings of Jesus and those say that we are to love everyone.

...

Do I hate gay people? No, I honestly don't hate anyone but I don't support sex or lust before marriage. The Bible is clear about living in sin and the dangers of doing so. But at the same time, as bHero said in the OP, salvation is for all. If people would look first at their own sin and then at their brother or sister's, I'm guessing that they'd come to the conclusion that both have sinned and are deserving of death as they've wronged the King of the Universe. But, Praise God, that Jesus took our place and paid that price and his grace and love is for all, gay or straight.

...

So here's my opinion after that long-winded lead up: I don't support gay marriage and I never will. I think homosexuality is inherently wrong but as is premarital sex for anyone. Homosexual couples can have something for tax purposes like a civil union but don't put the word "marriage" with it because that's a perversion of what marriage truly is (a spiritual bond but that's another conversation). That said, I love my friends who have had sex before marriage and I don't look down on others because of their sin because I've got more than enough of my own. I'm not going to hate someone because of their sexual preference but that doesn't mean that I have to support their actions either. The media would characterize me as a bigot who hates gays because of the "for us or against us" mentality, but that's not the case at all. The phrase "hate the sin but love the sinner" is old and tired but it actually applies here. Now if we could just get the people like Westboro Baptist to apply the same ideology, then we'd be in a better place. But that won't happen and Christians will continue to be viewed as radicals like those from WBC because we don't agree with everyone else.
Agreed. Thanks for sharing.
 

UTBear

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I have no idea. And that's the difference between believers and non-believers fundamentally--we are ok with not having an answer to everything.
Just as Christians don't know who created God or where he came from. If the universe has to have a creator then God would to. I've seen some scientific theorizing lately that matter perhaps was came spontaneously from Dark Energy.
 

PFD

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Dallas
Please explain your newfound interest in a prime mover and its relation to a Jew being executed by an imperial power.
Now, now. You're deliberately moving the goalposts.

The questions regarding the beginning of the universe--e.g., How did the universe come into existence? Was it random and unguided? Or did a higher intelligence create the universe? Is the evidence scientifically more consistent with a random event or an intelligent design?--are very different from the question of whether Jesus Christ was a man or an incarnate deity who came to Earth to die as a sacrifice for the sins of humankind.

To be fair, most folks can't begin to process the latter question until they first reach conclusions about the former. Which is entirely logical, as the tenability of the latter rests upon the veracity of the former.

So, respectfully, if you're interested in an intelligent discussion, then pick a topic and stick with it.
 

seadaddy

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Please explain your newfound interest in a prime mover and its relation to a Jew being executed by an imperial power.
From what I gather from your posts, you do not believe in any kind of higher power. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that right. I'm just trying to see how you think this old world got started. Do you think it possible there are other higher intelligent . . . maybe even super higher intelligent beings . . . in this universe? If so, could one of them have taken an interest in our planet millions or thousands of years ago? Would that higher power have been capable of creating a certain Jesus, giving him the ability to create miracles, raise people from the dead,etc.? Is that too far fetched to be totally impossible? How do you or I, simple earthly creatures, know what all goes on within our universe? No offense meant, but I don't think you have any clue better than the rest of us.
 

TEXBTP

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When atheists come across a death reminder or brace for possible imminent death, they fall back on religion and prayer to their God for additional life. I always found it odd that people that take so much pleasure in deriding those that are religious fall on it when they have nothing left.
 

Hiphopster

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Some do. Not fair to use blanket statements like that.

Besides, at that point, people are just looking for a clue to the future. It's simply not the same as belief in a god that prevents gay marriage, is against prophylactics, etc.

There is simply no logical reason to believe in the God of the Bible. Or at very minimum a God that takes up residence in the daily decisions of human life.
 

seadaddy

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When atheists come across a death reminder or brace for possible imminent death, they fall back on religion and prayer to their God for additional life. I always found it odd that people that take so much pleasure in deriding those that are religious fall on it when they have nothing left.
I've seen the same exact thing, Tex. I knew a former boss who derided religion/spirituality about as much as Duke. His wife came down with lung cancer. He got religion immediately.
 

Duke Silver

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I've seen the same exact thing, Tex. I knew a former boss who derided religion/spirituality about as much as Duke. His wife came down with lung cancer. He got religion immediately.
Your former boss sounds like a moron.
 

Duke Silver

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From what I gather from your posts, you do not believe in any kind of higher power. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that right. I'm just trying to see how you think this old world got started. Do you think it possible there are other higher intelligent . . . maybe even super higher intelligent beings . . . in this universe? If so, could one of them have taken an interest in our planet millions or thousands of years ago? Would that higher power have been capable of creating a certain Jesus, giving him the ability to create miracles, raise people from the dead,etc.? Is that too far fetched to be totally impossible? How do you or I, simple earthly creatures, know what all goes on within our universe? No offense meant, but I don't think you have any clue better than the rest of us.
First of all, I answered this in the other thread. I told you I don't think much about a "higher power" in the way you're describing it. It's not an interesting question to me because it is unfalsifiable and wouldn't lead to better life for anyone if we knew one way or the other.

Yes, the bolded seems extremely far-fetched. It also seems, frankly, rather stupid for "super higher intelligent beings" to do.
 

Duke Silver

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Now, now. You're deliberately moving the goalposts.

The questions regarding the beginning of the universe--e.g., How did the universe come into existence? Was it random and unguided? Or did a higher intelligence create the universe? Is the evidence scientifically more consistent with a random event or an intelligent design?--are very different from the question of whether Jesus Christ was a man or an incarnate deity who came to Earth to die as a sacrifice for the sins of humankind.

To be fair, most folks can't begin to process the latter question until they first reach conclusions about the former. Which is entirely logical, as the tenability of the latter rests upon the veracity of the former.

So, respectfully, if you're interested in an intelligent discussion, then pick a topic and stick with it.
No, I am absolutely not. This thread is about Christianity and Christian beliefs, and seadaddy has repeatedly made clear that he is a hardcore Christian. So while believing in a "higher power" is certainly necessary, it is still not sufficient for believing in Jesus. Even if I concede a god created the universe, it has little relevancy to Christian morality. It was seadaddy who began the prime mover questions; I asked how these questions help at all in determining the validity of Christianity.
 

PFD

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Dallas
No, I am absolutely not. This thread is about Christianity and Christian beliefs, and seadaddy has repeatedly made clear that he is a hardcore Christian. So while believing in a "higher power" is certainly necessary, it is still not sufficient for believing in Jesus. Even if I concede a god created the universe, it has little relevancy to Christian morality. It was seadaddy who began the prime mover questions; I asked how these questions help at all in determining the validity of Christianity.
Changing the topic from "prime mover" to Jesus is moving the goalposts.

The answer to your question is simple. Textually, chronologically, and fundamentally, the Old Testament paves the way for the New Testament. As I noted in a prior post, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for someone to accept the Jesus Christ of the New Testament without first accepting the God of the Old Testament.

That you choose not to believe is certainly your choice to make. [As are its consequences.] However, let's not pretend that you aren't making choices that defy science and reason, as well. For example, choosing to believe in a random or unguided "Big Bang" model of the origin of the universe is choosing to defy the principles of mathematic, physics, and chemistry.

I'm not afraid to ask or confront the hard questions about my faith. I also don't pretend to have all the answers. I acknowledge that there is a point at which my relationship with my God rests on faith--"the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"--rather than human knowledge.

That's not intellectually troubling for me, however, because it's really just an acknowledgement of the obvious, i.e., the limitations of human knowledge. In light of how much we know that we don't know, secular humanism has always struck me as a silly confluence of ignorance and arrogance.
 

Duke Silver

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Changing the topic from "prime mover" to Jesus is moving the goalposts..
Re-read the thread. The topic is Christianity. I'm trying to get him back on topic after answering his unrelated question.

The answer to your question is simple. Textually, chronologically, and fundamentally, the Old Testament paves the way for the New Testament. As I noted in a prior post, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for someone to accept the Jesus Christ of the New Testament without first accepting the God of the Old Testament.

That you choose not to believe is certainly your choice to make. [As are its consequences.] However, let's not pretend that you aren't making choices that defy science and reason, as well. For example, choosing to believe in a random or unguided "Big Bang" model of the origin of the universe is choosing to defy the principles of mathematic, physics, and chemistry.

I'm not afraid to ask or confront the hard questions about my faith. I also don't pretend to have all the answers. I acknowledge that there is a point at which my relationship with my God rests on faith--"the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"--rather than human knowledge.

That's not intellectually troubling for me, however, because it's really just an acknowledgement of the obvious, i.e., the limitations of human knowledge. In light of how much we know that we don't know, secular humanism has always struck me as a silly confluence of ignorance and arrogance.
This is all bullsh*t.
 

Duke Silver

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Well, I see this is going to be a cerebral discussion. :p

I hope everyone else appreciates the irony as much as I do.
I've been plenty cerebral about this subject in the past, but your last response didn't warrant anything further.
 
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Duke Silver

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Please single out each paragraph that deserves a "cerebral" response, and then flesh each out rather than use mere conclusory statements. Or post another picture.
 

PFD

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Dallas
Please single out each paragraph that deserves a "cerebral" response, and then flesh each out rather than use mere conclusory statements. Or post another picture.
Let's start with this one:

That you choose not to believe is certainly your choice to make. [As are its consequences.] However, let's not pretend that you aren't making choices that defy science and reason, as well. For example, choosing to believe in a random or unguided "Big Bang" model of the origin of the universe is choosing to defy the principles of mathematic, physics, and chemistry.
I assume that you know enough about mathematics and probability to know that it is practically, mathematically impossible for the universe to have originated and evolved at random to the "finely tuned" state of our current existence (e.g., the proportions of our solar system, the delicate balances of Earth's atmosphere and ecosystem, the formation of water on Earth, the complexity of DNA in human and animal life, etc.).

I also assume that you know enough about nuclear physics--especially with your well-documented background in nuclear engineering :p--to understand that the formation of carbon--as the basic building blocks of life on Earth--in the nuclear fusion reaction that was the "Big Bang" is both remarkable and highly unlikely.

BTW, if your answer involves the term "string theory," then you're simply trading science fiction for religion.
 

PFD

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Dallas
Or post another picture.
BTW, I doubt anyone missed the fact that the guy who responded with the intellectually soaring "This is all bullsh!t" turned around and made a snide remark about the intellectual sufficiency of a picture mocking said response.

Self-awareness. It's underrated.