N. Korea "replaces" its nuclear negotiating team

ttaghorn

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Gotta hand it to him, if anyone disagree's with you just take them out and kill them, as opposed to our policy of firing them. Kim rules NK, he is the final say so, no one should ever dare getting in his way. Not the sort of chap we should take lightly in any talks about any subject.
 

Shane3

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TP posted a quote about some people just need to be killed. Kim has forfeited his right to live. Not only because of this action. He has a long track record.
 

U.S. Bates

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Here
TP posted a quote about some people just need to be killed. Kim has forfeited his right to live. Not only because of this action. He has a long track record.
Good luck killing him without sacrificing a ton of Koreans and others. No easy or clean solutions to deal along with his regime.
 

Shane3

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Good luck killing him without sacrificing a ton of Koreans and others. No easy or clean solutions to deal along with his regime.
I know. I would actually be okay with Trump giving him $5 billion to leave NK forever and let the two countries be reunited, like the two Germanys were reunited.
 

eodhorn

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This would have been a good job for our Cold War era CIA assassination techniques. Too bad we no longer assassinate foreign leaders, regardless of how terrible they are. Nowadays to do this legally we have to destabilize the entire country into revolt, which seems like 100% of the time bites us in the ass later.
 

calvin farquhar

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This would have been a good job for our Cold War era CIA assassination techniques. Too bad we no longer assassinate foreign leaders, regardless of how terrible they are. Nowadays to do this legally we have to destabilize the entire country into revolt, which seems like 100% of the time bites us in the ass later.
It wont' happen. We just need to stay out of it but keep him in check as best we can. He's crazier than a U.S. progressive politician running for the dem nom.
 

JG

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This would have been a good job for our Cold War era CIA assassination techniques. Too bad we no longer assassinate foreign leaders, regardless of how terrible they are. Nowadays to do this legally we have to destabilize the entire country into revolt, which seems like 100% of the time bites us in the ass later.
That usually worked out so well for us.
 

JG

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We killed some people rather successfully, and also failed (Castro). But to me it’s a better option than destroying an entire country.
Where did it work where we killed a leader?
 

JG

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Here is a list of folks we were involved, or directly responsible for their capture or kill. None on the scale of Kim, but we have had some success and some eye covering moments in our history.

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/US/Foreign_Assassinations_since_1945
They include the US in that list as “confirmed yes”. Guess Oliver Stone have them info...

Question. What places where we took sovereign leaders did it work out well? PS terror leaders aren’t sovereign.
 

bHero

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eodhorn

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They include the US in that list as “confirmed yes”. Guess Oliver Stone have them info...

Question. What places where we took sovereign leaders did it work out well? PS terror leaders aren’t sovereign.
Depends. Palestine is currently ran by what most would contend is a terrorist organization, but they are also the elected leaders. Many of those South American countries on the list had taken power violently, but they were in control. In many cases terrorist leader and sovereign leader can be muddled. The whole NK leadership could be considered both. I will agree we haven’t had much success, but in most cases those countries became less of a direct threat to us, but left in a bad state of affairs. (Libya, Iraq (may be actually getting better)
 
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JG

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Depends. Palestine is currently ran by what most would contend is a terrorist organization, but they are also the elected leaders. Many of those South American countries on the list had taken power violently, but they were in control. In many cases terrorist leader and sovereign leader can be muddled. The whole NK leadership could be considered both. I will agree we haven’t had much success, but in most cases those countries became less of a direct threat to us, but left in a bad state of affairs. (Libya, Iraq (may be actually getting better)
Iraq? Maybe you missed that whole ISIS thing there? Or the thousands of American lives lost there?

I would call the Iraq War a colossal blunder.
 

JG

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ISIS was a direct result of an irresponsible, accelerated, and vocalized pull out of a country not yet ready to stand on its own 2 feet. By the Obama administration.
How many more Americans did you want to see die there? 5,000 weren’t enough?

The Obama administration did what was the clear will of the American people, to GTFO of that mess.
 

UTGrad91

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Iraq? Maybe you missed that whole ISIS thing there? Or the thousands of American lives lost there?

I would call the Iraq War a colossal blunder.
ISIS was a direct result of an irresponsible, accelerated, and vocalized pull out of a country not yet ready to stand on its own 2 feet. By the Obama administration.
The Iraq War was a collosal bunder and that is of course solely on GWB.

That said, a President inherits the foreign policy situation he inherits and can be judged on how he deals with that situation. Ike got a truce in Korea after only 5 months in office that's lasted 66 years. By comparison, Obama took over 4 years to get us out of Iraq and he did so without any kind of settlement in place and the vacuum created by us leaving allowed ISIS to take over large parts of Iraq and that mismanagement of the situation is on Obama.
 

eodhorn

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How many more Americans did you want to see die there? 5,000 weren’t enough?

The Obama administration did what was the clear will of the American people, to GTFO of that mess.
I was there ****face. And almost everyone there in the **** with me agree that we would prefer to have done it the right way and not died in vain.
 

UTGrad91

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I was there ****face. And almost everyone there in the **** with me agree that we would prefer to have done it the right way and not died in vain.
You were there but remember @JG knows more about it than you sitting comfortably in his house in Frisco. He knows all, just ask him!!
 
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JG

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I appreciate that you were there, more than you know.

I appreciate the sacrifice and service of all who went.

I ask why the hell we sent you. If brave Americans are willing to sacrifice themselves for us the least we can do is not waste that sacrifice on fool’s errands.

What would the “right way” have looked like? What was the goal and how did we accomplish it?

The operation was dumb from the start. You can call an operation “Iraqi freedom” then go kill a whole bunch of them. And the idea that we can go in and remove a leader then bail and have them be our friends forever was asinine.

I can and do appreciate your service and that of those who served and died by you. But who is more supportive of the troops, you, or me who wouldn’t have had thousands of them get killed without gaining anything for our country?
 

eodhorn

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I appreciate that you were there, more than you know.

I appreciate the sacrifice and service of all who went.

I ask why the hell we sent you. If brave Americans are willing to sacrifice themselves for us the least we can do is not waste that sacrifice on fool’s errands.

What would the “right way” have looked like? What was the goal and how did we accomplish it?

The operation was dumb from the start. You can call an operation “Iraqi freedom” then go kill a whole bunch of them. And the idea that we can go in and remove a leader then bail and have them be our friends forever was asinine.

I can and do appreciate your service and that of those who served and died by you. But who is more supportive of the troops, you, or me who wouldn’t have had thousands of them get killed without gaining anything for our country?
I think almost everyone thinks we went there for all the wrong reasons. Afghanistan was asking for what they got. Iraq not so much.

But to address your point. We went there, and we kicked ass. We bled, cried, and fought like hell for people we didn’t care about to provide them an opportunity at a new life. I cannot convey how sickening it was to see ISIS take control of cities I had liberated, cities my friends had died for. None of us bitched and moaned about why we were there. We were there and we were going to do our best to leave it safer than we found it. A vast majority of those people were grateful. Especially in the Kurd heavy north. I got blown up multiple times, held friends as they died, and killed people so it could end in something better. Then that feckless asshat Obama began to pull troops before the necessary infrastructure and training of the people of Iraq had been complete. Men died because he had people pulled out and left troops to defend impossible battle spaces. He advertised it all on worldwide television so the enemy knew timelines, and he stuck with those timelines. And finally he served Iraq up to ISIS on a platter. A country our men died for, just given away, cheapening their sacrifices. And then more men had to die to retake land we had already taken, because someone wanted the political gain, instead of doing the hard thing and doing it the right way.
 

JG

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I think almost everyone thinks we went there for all the wrong reasons. Afghanistan was asking for what they got. Iraq not so much.

But to address your point. We went there, and we kicked ass. We bled, cried, and fought like hell for people we didn’t care about to provide them an opportunity at a new life. I cannot convey how sickening it was to see ISIS take control of cities I had liberated, cities my friends had died for. None of us bitched and moaned about why we were there. We were there and we were going to do our best to leave it safer than we found it. A vast majority of those people were grateful. Especially in the Kurd heavy north. I got blown up multiple times, held friends as they died, and killed people so it could end in something better. Then that feckless asshat Obama began to pull troops before the necessary infrastructure and training of the people of Iraq had been complete. Men died because he had people pulled out and left troops to defend impossible battle spaces. He advertised it all on worldwide television so the enemy knew timelines, and he stuck with those timelines. And finally he served Iraq up to ISIS on a platter. A country our men died for, just given away, cheapening their sacrifices. And then more men had to die to retake land we had already taken, because someone wanted the political gain, instead of doing the hard thing and doing it the right way.
First off, Bush signed the troop drawdown schedule. That was public before the 2008 election.

Second, blame the citizens. Obama was really really clear on what he was going to do, and followed up on that.

The American people made this choice. It was the overwhelmingly clear will of the voters.

Lastly, the longer we stayed the worse it would get for our guys. The more resistance, the more potshots those people would take at us. Eventually we would have to leave, and it would have been the same.
 

eodhorn

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First off, Bush signed the troop drawdown schedule. That was public before the 2008 election.

Second, blame the citizens. Obama was really really clear on what he was going to do, and followed up on that.

The American people made this choice. It was the overwhelmingly clear will of the voters.

Lastly, the longer we stayed the worse it would get for our guys. The more resistance, the more potshots those people would take at us. Eventually we would have to leave, and it would have been the same.
Your absolutely incorrect on the longer we stayed. The resistance was all but gone. In Al Hawija in 2005-2006 I was doing 15 IED calls a day and getting in fire fights daily. By 2008 we were walking the streets, playing soccer with children and feeling pretty safe taking our body armor off while doing so.

It was a completely different country, and we were training these people how to govern, how to police, and how to fight for themselves. Rebuilding takes time, especially for people under the reign of a tyrant for over 40 years. Time to learn how to stick up for yourself, time to develop that oh so terrible nationalism, pride in your country where you will defend it with your life. Time to see how freedom is hard, but worth fighting and dying for. We died to give these people that. We promised them that. And then we abandoned them halfway through the process.
 

windycityhorn

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This would have been a good job for our Cold War era CIA assassination techniques. Too bad we no longer assassinate foreign leaders, regardless of how terrible they are.
From what I've read and from former NatSec folks I've talked to, the CIA has gamed out assassinating Kim, both he and his father. The immediate problem is that it would be almost impossible to pull off. The secondary but maybe more important issue is that there are apparently failsafes whereby as soon as Kim is killed, the missiles start flying. And we'd have to put our trust in multiple members of the regime not following through on those protocols.
 
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eodhorn

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From what I've read and from former NatSec folks I've talked to, the CIA has gamed out assassinating Kim, both he and his father. The immediate problem is that it would be almost impossible to pull off. The secondary but maybe more important issue is that there are apparently failsafes whereby as soon as Kim is killed, the missiles start flying. And we'd have to put our trust in multiple members of the regime not following through on those protocols.
That’s a very good reason then. In that scenario, and only if it comes to it, a strategic, crippling bombing campaign without warning is probably the best option. We have the ability to pretty much destroy their nuclear capability and be gone before they realize we were in their airspace. But that’s a bold move because it would have to be done with absolutely no warning given to China.
 

mcb0703!

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From what I've read and from former NatSec folks I've talked to, the CIA has gamed out assassinating Kim, both he and his father. The immediate problem is that it would be almost impossible to pull off. The secondary but maybe more important issue is that there are apparently failsafes whereby as soon as Kim is killed, the missiles start flying. And we'd have to put our trust in multiple members of the regime not following through on those protocols.
All of this is correct. & it’s not only Kim that would need to be assassinated, it’s multiple aunts & uncles that have been around for many years, a part of the inner circle.

& many do not realize the long term changes & effects of the NK people if regime change occurs. This will take a full generation to remove the Kim family problems they’ve instilled...chaos will be the norm for many years. Disease will be rampant & the borders will need to be closed at both South Korea & China. & if the prisons ever open & prisoners released, that’ll create an even greater crisis

Last, NK regime change will not occur without support from China. Full support
 

futures2015

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From what I've read and from former NatSec folks I've talked to, the CIA has gamed out assassinating Kim, both he and his father. The immediate problem is that it would be almost impossible to pull off. The secondary but maybe more important issue is that there are apparently failsafes whereby as soon as Kim is killed, the missiles start flying. And we'd have to put our trust in multiple members of the regime not following through on those protocols.
That’s a very good reason then. In that scenario, and only if it comes to it, a strategic, crippling bombing campaign without warning is probably the best option. We have the ability to pretty much destroy their nuclear capability and be gone before they realize we were in their airspace. But that’s a bold move because it would have to be done with absolutely no warning given to China.
 

bHero

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I think almost everyone thinks we went there for all the wrong reasons. Afghanistan was asking for what they got. Iraq not so much.
Back when OIF started we called it "Operations Finish Desert Storm" and from the word go most of us thought it was just about finishing what daddy started. And I was in Guam when it kicked off, at the chow hall when Geraldo started giving away troop movements. It was the easiest assignment ever. We were there as part of "flexible deterrent option A" keeping the region stable with a show of force and getting ready to move forward if it got hairy.

We didn't. I spent 4 months getting drunk and getting a tan. And drag racing GOV's around the MSA. One guy tried to wrestle a hog and we were haggling with the wildlfe services trying to get one from out of their traps. Another lost a fight with a monitor lizard and it trashed his arm. Another ate a booney pepper and passed out. Another tried to spit a rock far with his mouth but it was actually deer ****. Another pissed on one of the "holy trees" and then had a really odd series of coincidences take place, ending with him getting an Art 15 and his dad dying later that evening. We also got hit by 2 typhoons, went shopping cart surfing in 1, did disaster recovery in both. Probably 10-20% of the guys picked up a new STD from the locals. Played some golf and got a bottle of Old Crow for never hitting a birdie (while play 4 man best ball). Way too much idle time, lots of dumb stuff happened.
 

Eric Nahlin

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How many more Americans did you want to see die there? 5,000 weren’t enough?

The Obama administration did what was the clear will of the American people, to GTFO of that mess.
This is your most embarrassing post ever, which is saying quite a bit. Worse than lecturing a parent about how he raises his kid. Worse than baseless accusations of racism.

You would argue gulags and communism with Solzhenitsyn. You have no awareness whatsoever.

Embarrassing.
 

Duke Silver

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This is your most embarrassing post ever, which is saying quite a bit. Worse than lecturing a parent about how he raises his kid. Worse than baseless accusations of racism.

You would argue gulags and communism with Solzhenitsyn. You have no awareness whatsoever.

Embarrassing.
He’s human garbage.
 

JG

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This is your most embarrassing post ever, which is saying quite a bit. Worse than lecturing a parent about how he raises his kid. Worse than baseless accusations of racism.

You would argue gulags and communism with Solzhenitsyn. You have no awareness whatsoever.

Embarrassing.
Anyone who advocated keeping the troops in Iraq also by default advocated a situation where more of them were going to get killed.

If you left them in country, more people were going to want to take shots of them, and more of them we’re going to get killed. You can otherwise, but leaving them there another several years would’ve resulted in another few thousand dead American soldiers.

It’s not as simple as saying we shouldn’t have left. Just understand that taking the position would have gotten more Americans killed. If you are OK with that fine. I was not.
 

Duke Silver

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Anyone who advocated keeping the troops in Iraq also by default advocated a situation where more of them were going to get killed.

If you left them in country, more people were going to want to take shots of them, and more of them we’re going to get killed. You can otherwise, but leaving them there another several years would’ve resulted in another few thousand dead American soldiers.

It’s not as simple as saying we shouldn’t have left. Just understand that taking the position would have gotten more Americans killed. If you are OK with that fine. I was not.
Human garbage.
 
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JG

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Human garbage.
Did you want them to stay longer?

There are consequences. Some of them would have gotten killed. That’s the consequence of the policy you advocate.

Own it.

Guys like @eodhorn who disagree with me had the balls to go put their ass on the line to protect us.

You advocate getting them shot at while you sit on your ass getting stoned.
 

Duke Silver

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Did you want them to stay longer?

There are consequences. Some of them would have gotten killed. That’s the consequence of the policy you advocate.

Own it.

Guys like @eodhorn who disagree with me had the balls to go put their ass on the line to protect us.

You advocate getting them shot at while you sit on your ass getting stoned.
You. Are. Human. Garbage. Die a terrible death.

We’re both lucky I’m not a lunatic and didn’t pay you a visit at the wardman.