The new SAT.

calvin farquhar

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I guess just having an understanding of math and english aren't enough.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/sat-to-give-students-adversity-score-to-capture-social-and-economic-background-11557999000

The College Board, the company that writes and administers the SAT college entrance exam to thousands of American high schoolers, says it's revamping its scoring process to include an "adversity score" alongside the SAT's standardized measurements of verbal and mathematical prowess, according to The Wall Street Journal.

The "adversity score" will take into account the social and economic backgrounds of SAT takers, and will be awarded based on a 15-factor analysis, The Wall Street Journal reports. Students will be judged on "the crime rate and poverty levels of the student's high school and neighborhood," the student's "housing environment," the student's parents' income and education levels, and whether the student had access to higher-level and advanced placement (AP) classes.

"A score of 50 is considered 'average,'" according to the WSJ. Scores above 50 indicate hardship. Scores below 50 indicate that a student is "privileged." College admissions advisers will access the scores through the SAT's online score reporting system, in a tab labeled "Overall Disadvantage Level."

It appears students will not be able to view — or, more importantly, challenge — their adversity scores.

The College Board justified the new adversity score by claiming that low SAT scores aren't always the result of poor academic performance, and that colleges, who are relying less and less on diversity quotas, should be aware of any exculpatory evidence that might explain a poor SAT performance.

"There are a number of amazing students who may have scored less (on the SAT) but have accomplished more," David Coleman, CEO of The College Board told the WSJ. "We can't sit on our hands and ignore the disparities of wealth reflected in the SAT.
 

acreativeusername

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A doctor I worked with today actually mentioned this. Both he and his wife are doctors, and he's the first in his family to even attend college. Their kids are beyond screwed because their parents are successful, short of completely dominating the tests
 

Turnbo828

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A doctor I worked with today actually mentioned this. Both he and his wife are doctors, and he's the first in his family to even attend college. Their kids are beyond screwed because their parents are successful, short of completely dominating the tests
Total BS. I’m smarter than you and score higher on my SATs than you, but because you’re poor and/or live in a bad neighborhood, they raised your score higher than mine. Total crock of ****.
 

J Galt

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In their minds, that is what they are trying to avoid.
and they're probably not wrong that starting from a more challenging home environment tends to lead to lower standardized test scores.

the question is: should we reconfigure a merit-based system to artificially level that disadvantage by adjusting scores -or- should we encourage different values that lead to better home environments but keep the merit-based-rewards in place?
 

padrehorn11

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So the children of the high skills, professional degree, immigrants we are going for under the merit-based immigration preferences will get dinged on their SAT score before they even take a seat.

Completely logical in today's America.:confused:

So maybe the immigrants with advanced degrees and skills will consider their children's future and consider some country with more sensible policies. Ya think?
 

calvin farquhar

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This is going to result in a Cobra effect. Thomas Sowell discusses the negative consequences of putting individuals in academic situations they are not ready for here: http://insidetexas.com/forums/threads/thomas-sowell-on-the-remnant-podcast.86785/#post-2945648 (@Eric Nahlin posted a few weeks back)
This is playing out all across the country as less qualified applicants get admitted and ultimately drop out. There are several studies confirming this and it has disproportionately affected those it was supposed to help. The problem becomes that many never end up finishing school. It's prevalent at Ivy League schools, law schools, med schools. We're a stupid country that can't admit some basic reality. The valedictorian of Little House on the Prairie High School is less likely to be ready for the rigor of Yale than the one from Highland Park High School. This approach on the SAT will likely give more "points" to Laura Ingalls because she's living on a prairie, possibly giving her a spot she may not be ready to take on while leaving out a more qualified candidate. I understand the idea, but it's flawed. An idea with good intentions that will end up with a poor outcome.
 

futures2015

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This is playing out all across the country as less qualified applicants get admitted and ultimately drop out. There are several studies confirming this and it has disproportionately affected those it was supposed to help. The problem becomes that many never end up finishing school. It's prevalent at Ivy League schools, law schools, med schools. We're a stupid country that can't admit some basic reality. The valedictorian of Little House on the Prairie High School is less likely to be ready for the rigor of Yale than the one from Highland Park High School. This approach on the SAT will likely give more "points" to Laura Ingalls because she's living on a prairie, possibly giving her a spot she may not be ready to take on while leaving out a more qualified candidate. I understand the idea, but it's flawed. An idea with good intentions that will end up with a poor outcome.
It's clear to me that the people who developed this new SAT plan are short on electrolytes. They need yuuuge amounts of Brawndo.

 

JG

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Let me ask a question. Who really deserves a spot more… Student A… Who lives in highland park, and had mommy and daddy buy him SAT prep classes. He’s had the best teachers, lots of available AP and college prep classes. He never had to work. He got a 1340 on the SAT.

Student B is from Throckmorton. His dad is long gone. He lives in a trailer with his mom. It’s a small school with only a few teachers and only a couple of AP classes. He’s had to work at Allsups since his sophomore year. He got a 1280 on the SAT.

Which one deserves the spot more?
 
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jamesrh

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Frankly, I think that that each school should use the SAT to establish a min threshold based on historical data, and then use whatever other criteria they choose to use beyond that. The schools use SAT scores for ranking because it is simple, but then they don't get the results they are now looking for so they try to come up with some revised rubric that still allows them to avoid owning their decisions. They should just pick from the pools that are likely to graduate based on grades and SAT scores, and own their decisions.
 

eodhorn

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Let me ask a question. Who really deserves a spot more… Student A… Who lives in highland park, and had mommy and daddy buy him SAT prep classes. He’s had the best teachers, lots of available AP and college prep classes. He never had to work. He got a 1340 on the SAT.

Student B is from Throckmorton. His dad is long gone. He lives in a trailer with his mom. It’s a small school with only a few teachers and only a couple of AP classes. He’s had to work at Allsups since his sophomore year. He got a 1280 on the SAT.

Which one deserves the spot more?

I would definitely want to see student "B"s actual grades during that four year HS span. If they are comparable I might pick "B" which isn't a popular concept I am sure. I do value time management though, and "B" probably is better at it.
 
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calvin farquhar

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I would definitely want to see student "B"s actual grades during that four year HS span. If they are comparable I might pick "B" which isn't a popular concept I am sure. I do value time management though, and "B" probably is better at it.
Your first question should always be, "Is either of them Asian?". Next, determine where they fall on the intersectional scale. I'd need to see the actual classes in addition to grades. An AP A in chem is worth more to me than an A in reg chem. As for the question you answered, it lacks the detail needed to make the decision.
 
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eodhorn

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Your first question should always be, "Is either of them Asian?". Next, determine where they fall on the intersectional scale. I'd need to see the actual classes in addition to grades. An AP A in chem is worth more to me than an A in reg chem. As for the question you answered, it lacks the detail needed to make the decision.
Agree. And I probably should have gone into more detail, but I am a dumb old retired bomb technician. College was not my chosen path so not necessarily qualified to deep dive answers here.
 
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calvin farquhar

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Agree. And I probably should have gone into more detail, but I am a dumb old retired bomb technician. College was not my chosen path so not necessarily qualified to deep dive answers here.
Your point was right. Grades matter. Classes matter. The entrance essay matters. Ewe kan tale alot frum they're ese, dude. How'd they interview?
 

The_Major

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Let me ask a question. Who really deserves a spot more… Student A… Who lives in highland park, and had mommy and daddy buy him SAT prep classes. He’s had the best teachers, lots of available AP and college prep classes. He never had to work. He got a 1340 on the SAT.

Student B is from Throckmorton. His dad is long gone. He lives in a trailer with his mom. It’s a small school with only a few teachers and only a couple of AP classes. He’s had to work at Allsups since his sophomore year. He got a 1280 on the SAT.

Which one deserves the spot more?
What you are pointing out is that the SAT is a terrible gauge. And you are right.
 
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The_Major

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Your first question should always be, "Is either of them Asian?". Next, determine where they fall on the intersectional scale. I'd need to see the actual classes in addition to grades. An AP A in chem is worth more to me than an A in reg chem. As for the question you answered, it lacks the detail needed to make the decision.
The problem with this is AP Chem at one school isn't the same as AP Chem at another.
 

btown1110

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Let me ask a question. Who really deserves a spot more… Student A… Who lives in highland park, and had mommy and daddy buy him SAT prep classes. He’s had the best teachers, lots of available AP and college prep classes. He never had to work. He got a 1340 on the SAT.

Student B is from Throckmorton. His dad is long gone. He lives in a trailer with his mom. It’s a small school with only a few teachers and only a couple of AP classes. He’s had to work at Allsups since his sophomore year. He got a 1280 on the SAT.

Which one deserves the spot more?
Well in Texas, it's self-selecting because if they both applied to UT then Student B is much more likely to gain automatic acceptance than Student A.
 

scout3dave

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I don't want to denigrate the wealthy kid who scored well on his SAT unless he was one of the bozos in California who's parents bribed someone to take the test for him. He still has to make a class ranking to get into a UT for example.

Now for the kid who came up in a more difficult situation there are opportunities for him to get into a UT by making class rank. Class rank is a good indicator of success especially coupled with SAT scores.

Basing acceptance on community service is stupid.
 

acreativeusername

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Something I just thought of... who verifies this info? What’s stopping a kid from completely lying about their parents’ income, education, and marital status?
 

calvin farquhar

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Something I just thought of... who verifies this info? What’s stopping a kid from completely lying about their parents’ income, education, and marital status?
IRS baby. I was thinking FAFSA and DOE but you wouldn't have filed it at the time you are applying.
 

JG

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Well in Texas, it's self-selecting because if they both applied to UT then Student B is much more likely to gain automatic acceptance than Student A.
I don't want to denigrate the wealthy kid who scored well on his SAT unless he was one of the bozos in California who's parents bribed someone to take the test for him. He still has to make a class ranking to get into a UT for example.

Now for the kid who came up in a more difficult situation there are opportunities for him to get into a UT by making class rank. Class rank is a good indicator of success especially coupled with SAT scores.

Basing acceptance on community service is stupid.
I agree with both of you.

Adding a layer comparing basically what the student had to overcome should be a small tool for places where the acceptance of a top class rank percent isn't automatic. It should be limited, maybe with two students that are fairly close in scores, figure who had to do more to reach that score and figure that student might be hungrier.

I also agree that community service is a really stupid measure. I didn't have time to do any such service - my ass had to work.
 

JG

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You can be coached to do well on the SAT. It's not a measurement of intelligence.
It’s a measure of knowledge, and somewhat of critical thinking. It’s a predicator of success in college, but it’s not infallible.

I would say you can be coached to do better on it, but you have to have the knowledge base and thinking skills to work with.
 
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J Galt

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Let me ask a question. Who really deserves a spot more… Student A… Who lives in highland park, and had mommy and daddy buy him SAT prep classes. He’s had the best teachers, lots of available AP and college prep classes. He never had to work. He got a 1340 on the SAT.

Student B is from Throckmorton. His dad is long gone. He lives in a trailer with his mom. It’s a small school with only a few teachers and only a couple of AP classes. He’s had to work at Allsups since his sophomore year. He got a 1280 on the SAT.

Which one deserves the spot more?
Well said, who deserves the spot more : student A (Alabama) or student B (UCF)? ;)

#neverforget
 
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